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grannyknot

Re keying door locks

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@Patcon 

Nope those won't fit---the face caps are vehicle specific to a large degree---outside diameter, inner hole diameter and profile--so as to fit the cylinder housing properly.

Early Subaru locks and components will interchange. The ASP numbers I posted above are the correct Datsun caps for 70 thru 78. I know what I need to order, just have to get a locksmith who will work with me.

 

 

 

 

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The doors, however, are a lot more difficult. I think I've posted some of these pics a long time ago (before Photobucket went hostile)...

I made a back-up anvil fixture to support the door lock face cap so it wouldn't get distorted while I pried up the crimped over edge. Here's the support anvil. I made it out of brass so it would be a little softer than the face cap and not mar the stainless face cap:
lockholder1.jpg

And here's how a door lock fits into the fixture:
lockholder2.jpg

With the door lock face down in the support anvil, I was able to pry around the edge of the face cap and open up the crimped seam:
P1010945.JPG

And after that... I stopped taking pics. I'm guessing that it got warm and I had to drive the Z. LOL

I've got a number of spare door locks. I'll take one apart and continue the photo documentary from here.

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@Captain Obvious

Yep three tabs on the hatch lock face cap---same till 78.

I'm looking at Jones Spring Company for small torsion springs for the dust shutter and Subaru locksets for missing pieces like the shutter itself.

Jeez C.O.--- you can answer twice to my once.

Carry on Capt'n!

Very nice holder fixture you fabricated there Sir. I've only stabbed myself three times tonight trying to pry face cap edges with my small screwdriver. I'm giving it up for the eve. Too much blood loss.

Edited by Zup
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Ha--- sometimes mine aren't even opposable. :huh:

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13 hours ago, Zup said:

@Patcon 

Nope those won't fit---the face caps are vehicle specific to a large degree---outside diameter, inner hole diameter and profile--so as to fit the cylinder housing properly.

Early Subaru locks and components will interchange. The ASP numbers I posted above are the correct Datsun caps for 70 thru 78. I know what I need to order, just have to get a locksmith who will work with me.

 

 

 

 

Keep me in the loop. I may have 2 different locksmith's that might order them for me. I am also working on getting a tumbler kit. I ordered some pliers last night. I believe they are on a slow boat from China

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@Patcon

Roger that! My tumbler (wafer) kit will be here soon. I'll post up the face cap, lock cylinder, and wafer numbers again as I found from ASP website. You might take the numbers to your smithys and see if they can get them from a wholesale automotive lock supplier. We'd organize a "group buy in" to cover the costs and distribute the individual pieces.

@S30Driver and I discussed buying a pair of the Gator brand pliers (professional quality) and doing a loaner program similar to the "Spindle pin puller" done previously by members here, but that is a large cash outlay up front.

KLOM makes a pair of these cap pliers that appears to be mid-range quality between the DHgate and Gator offerings. I like the re-seal feature of the KLOM, DHgate and Gator pliers, verses the cap removal only feature of the removal plier types.

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6 hours ago, Zup said:

@Patcon

Roger that! My tumbler (wafer) kit will be here soon. I'll post up the face cap, lock cylinder, and wafer numbers again as I found from ASP website. You might take the numbers to your smithys and see if they can get them from a wholesale automotive lock supplier. We'd organize a "group buy in" to cover the costs and distribute the individual pieces.

@S30Driver and I discussed buying a pair of the Gator brand pliers (professional quality) and doing a loaner program similar to the "Spindle pin puller" done previously by members here, but that is a large cash outlay up front.

KLOM makes a pair of these cap pliers that appears to be mid-range quality between the DHgate and Gator offerings. I like the re-seal feature of the KLOM, DHgate and Gator pliers, verses the cap removal only feature of the removal plier types.

How large of a wafer kit did you source? The ASP one?

I ordered the KLOM's for that reason. All of the sources I found for them online seemed to all be direct ship out of China

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So I found my box of lock related stuff... Unfortunately, there wasn't any definitive help in there about which specific donor I used for the springs. The notes on the bag indicate that it was a NIssan model and there is no mention of Honda parts:
P1140461.JPG

And I did find the following spring stuff together in one small bag. Not conclusive, but indicates that I did NOT use half of the two section spring:
P1140462.JPG

All indications are that I  used the one that looks like this. Probably clipped the ends off and maybe shortened it a turn or two so it would fit between the hinge holes on the hatch keyhole door:
P1140465.JPG

 

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And some words of experience about reusing the original locks... Every original lock I've ever opened up (with the exception of the rarely used glove box lock) has been a mess inside. Corroded. Pitted. Grooves worn where there shouldn't be grooves. Wafer / tumblers worn and sometimes bent. The pot metal they used for the lock body castings was probably chosen more for cost and it's ability to cast fine detail than it was for it's longevity.

 And the corresponding keys were worn as well, meaning that even replacing the wafers with new ones might not fix a sticky lock problem.

The point is...... All you guys buying face cap pliers thinking you're going to open up and rebuild your original door locks?  Based on my experience, you're going to find a worn, corroded, rusty, grooved, hunk of what used to be a lock. I would probably recommend buying a new set of door locks off ebay and opening them up and rekeying them to the rest of your car instead. If you can get new replacements that use the same blank as the rest of the car, then that would be a much better way to go.

New versions of both the ignition locks and door locks are available. The ones you can't get are hatch and glove box, and thankfully those two usually got much less use than the doors and ignition and stand a better chance of being salvageable.

Of course, YMMV.

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I was working more along the lines of being able to combine all the locks I have to rebuild a good set of locks all keyed together. I have a few locks to work with...

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1 hour ago, Patcon said:

I was working more along the lines of being able to combine all the locks I have to rebuild a good set of locks all keyed together. I have a few locks to work with...

+1 here. I got a matching lock set without the door locks (doors were missing in the junkyard donor) and would like to have a full matching lock set as a spare.

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So for those of you that I haven't scared off yet, I got a couple minutes to take a previously unmolested door lock apart. Here's a lock, my anvil holding fixture, and my home-brew face cap pliers:
P1140467.JPG

For the pliers, I ground one tip down a little so it's slightly shorter than the other leg:
P1140469.JPG

And I ground a radius into the jaws to kinda sorta fit the curve of the face caps. It's not a perfect match, but the intent is mostly to keep the corners from digging in and creasing the face cap material:
P1140470.JPG

Here's another pic with a better view of the radius ground into the jaw:
P1140471.JPG

Using those pliers, I am able to catch the lip of the face cap and straighten up the bent bead around the edge. Like this:
P1140472.JPG

And after a couple minutes of careful prying and working my way around the lock a couple times, I end up with the lip pried up straight enough that the face cap can be popped off the front of the lock. Takes some finesse and "the knack", but in the end, it looks like this:
P1140473.JPG

 

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3 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

So for those of you that I haven't scared off yet, I got a couple minutes to take a previously unmolested door lock apart. Here's a lock, my anvil holding fixture, and my home-brew face cap pliers:
P1140467.JPG

For the pliers, I ground one tip down a little so it's slightly shorter than the other leg:
P1140469.JPG

And I ground a radius into the jaws to kinda sorta fit the curve of the face caps. It's not a perfect match, but the intent is mostly to keep the corners from digging in and creasing the face cap material:
P1140470.JPG

Here's another pic with a better view of the radius ground into the jaw:
P1140471.JPG

Using those pliers, I am able to catch the lip of the face cap and straighten up the bent bead around the edge. Like this:
P1140472.JPG

And after a couple minutes of careful prying and working my way around the lock a couple times, I end up with the lip pried up straight enough that the face cap can be popped off the front of the lock. Takes some finesse and "the knack", but in the end, it looks like this:
P1140473.JPG

 

Now I have anvil envy! :blush:

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LOL    Yeah, I get that a lot.  You need a lathe, my friend.

Once you get the seam opened up, the face cap just pulls off the front of the lock:
P1140475.JPG

And the cylinder slides out of the lock body:
P1140476.JPG

Here's some of those corroded crusty tumbler wafers I was talking about earlier. However, despite the way it looks, this is actually the BEST door lock I've ever opened up. In fact, I wouldn't feel bad about reusing this one if I had to:
P1140477.JPG

And here's a shot down into the lock corroded lock body. If you look closely you can see some grooving in the body where the tumblers have dug in:
P1140478.JPG

And since I had the camera out, here's how the front face keyhole cover is held on. Note the dimples in the side where it was crimped into place. It's easy to just slide it off. Maybe use a small tool to un-bend the crimp a little bit if necessary:
P1140479.JPG

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One more reason to take updating locks seriously: old, worn locks and keys may have more in common than you realize.

Edited by NVZEE

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Excellent photo tutorial and cautionary statements Capt'n.

Do you have any firsthand experience with the locks available on E-bay that purportedly "fits Datsun 240Z"? Do they have the requisite lugs cast into the cylinder carrier body? I have been unable to determine that for certain by the photos posted in the listings.

While I wish that statement to be true I am highly skeptical and thus far have been unwilling to invest $35-$40 to find out. If indeed they are compatible then they are certainly a bargain. I know the tabs at the rear of the locks where the linkage rods attach are shaped differently but that may be something that can be overcome with out great difficulty.

Can anyone confirm ?

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My concern with new locks is the metal. The older metal from Japan is far superior to most of the metal being used now.

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 The pot-metal? lock barrel seems like a good item to submit to an Aluminum 3D Printing Service to see if a group buy is feasible. 

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10 hours ago, Zup said:

Do you have any firsthand experience with the locks available on E-bay that purportedly "fits Datsun 240Z"? Do they have the requisite lugs cast into the cylinder carrier body?

I'm not sure what requisite lugs you're talking about.

I do have first hand experience with some lock stuff from ebay, although since it's been a number of years since I messed with them. I'm not sure if what's available now is the same stuff that was available six or seven years ago, but back when I was doing my locks, the only locks that were being produced new were door locks and ignition locks and I they were being made in Taiwan (by ASP). I've never seen any new production for glove box or hatch locks. So back when I was doing all my locks, I purchased door locks and ignition lock stuff from ebay.

Be aware, however, that there are a couple different gotchas... First of which is that the really early cars used single sided keys and all that lock stuff is very different than what was used on the later cars. I don't know what constitutes "early" and "late" exactly, but I can guarantee that my 77 is "later" and I have absolutely no experience with the early single sided key stuff. I don't know if that's a 69-70 thing, or what.

Second possible gotcha is the key blank as there were a couple different blanks used (at least in the later years). By the time they got to 77 there were two blanks available which were a mirror image of each other. I'm not positive, but I believe this practice started in 74 with the 260.

The third gotcha is the length of the ignition cylinder and the number of tumblers included within. By the time they got to 77, the ignition locks used seven tumblers. But some year prior to that, the ignition locks only used six tumblers. So I'm not exactly sure on what year the change went into place, but at some point, they upped the number of tumblers from six to seven. I haven't researched it, but I believe all the door locks used six tumblers even into the later years.

The last gotcha is that the actuation arms on the 77-78 door locks are different than previous years and most of the ebay door locks won't work. I did a quick check and there was at least one seller that had stuff that was 77-78 specific, but the point is, if you're looking for 77-78 stuff (which I know you are not), you have one extra hurdle to overcome.

So the summary is.... If you're going to buy lock stuff off ebay, make sure it uses the correct (mirror) blank. And if it's an ignition lock you're buying, make sure it has the appropriate number of tumblers (six or seven - also referred to as "short" or "long" body). And if you're looking for door locks for 77-78, make sure you get the ones with the correct actuator arm.

Wow. Lots of words. Sorry.

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Here's a pic of the ignition lock I bought off ebay for my 77. My 280 uses the Taylor X7 key blank also known as Silca DAT6R blank. I believe the mirror image locks are Taylor X6 and DAT6L.

There are seven tumblers, although the careful reviewer will notice that there are actually eight slots in the cylinder. The eighth one is not actuated by the key and is simply a retainer to keep the cylinder from pulling out of the lock body. It's not counted as a tumbler. So this is what my 77 280 uses. I'm not sure if the longer seven tumbler locks will fit into the earlier assemblies that were originally designed for the six tumbler versions:
P1010752.JPG

 

 

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On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 10:17 PM, Zup said:

Very nice holder fixture you fabricated there Sir. I've only stabbed myself three times tonight trying to pry face cap edges with my small screwdriver. I'm giving it up for the eve. Too much blood loss.

LOL  I didn't see this before.

Yeah, I don't remember all the details, but I went through the same thing with the first door lock I opened up. I know I used a couple little screwdrivers and other pointy tools, but I don't remember how many times I stabbed myself.

I do know that I used screwdrivers and little chisels that I ground to shape to try to make the job easier, and while I did succeed, the face caps were a little ragged around the edge. The current set of tools of my pliers combined with the anvil holder have produced results good enough to re-use the face caps.

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18 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

stabbed myself three times tonight

If you put the front of the lock on the workbench and pry the edge open with a little screwdriver... you'll never stab yourself..  it's like using a knife or wood chisel.. Never use the knife/chisel towards your self..  i know a man who did.. cut his arm open and now in a wheelchair!  (he developt muscular dystrophy..) so be careful!  😉

EDIT:  no not the capt'n said.. Zup said it..!!  stupid computers... 😞

Edited by dutchzcarguy

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