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Correct fasteners for Intake and Exhaust Manifolds


Namerow

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52 minutes ago, Namerow said:

So the bolts you removed from the head are M8 x 1.25 metric, but the threads in the head seem to be 5/16" x 20?  Maybe a PO (or mechanic) got there before you with the same goal of cleaning up the threads, but bungled the job by using a 5/16 x 20 tap.  The metric bolts might still 'fit' afterwards.

Still, I think it's more likely that your metric tap-and-die collection may have a 'visitor' from the SAE family that lives in the drawer next door :P

Nope,  I'll have to video it for you doubting Thomas' :) (Tomi?)

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I'd like some further information about the factory hardware used to secure the exhaust manifold and intake manifolds to the head.  Can anyone tell me what markings are on the heads of the 6 bolts which secure the top of the intake manifolds to the head?  And, should there be flat as well as split lock washers used in conjunction with these bolts?

To secure the exhaust manifold to the head (3 points), besides the hex nut and split lock washer, there is a flat washer used.  What size OD and how thick? 

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Posted (edited)

I used Nissan Titan truck exhaust studs and one use lock nuts on the ends of my N42. Altima smaller stuff in the middle. All bought at local Nissan dealership.

The ends were already wallered out so going with the bigger studs was a no brainer. The smaller Altima which is the same as OE Datsun was just a much better, newer way than lock washers and free spinning nuts from the factory. My opinion only but after years of checking, they are still nice and tight.

Edited by siteunseen
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1 hour ago, inline6 said:

I'd like some further information about the factory hardware used to secure the exhaust manifold and intake manifolds to the head.  Can anyone tell me what markings are on the heads of the 6 bolts which secure the top of the intake manifolds to the head?  And, should there be flat as well as split lock washers used in conjunction with these bolts?

To secure the exhaust manifold to the head (3 points), besides the hex nut and split lock washer, there is a flat washer used.  What size OD and how thick? 

Here are some pics from my 7/70, after removing the intake and exhaust manifolds, I replaced the hardware in the locations that I found them. No lockwashers are used, except for the two capscrews that attach the thermostat housing. The thick exhaust manifold washers are 23.6mm OD x 9.0mm ID x 6.1mm thick on mine. The intake capscrews have "7" and "T" and "R" marks. Hope this helps.

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Yes, that is helpful. What is the diameter and thickness of the flat washers used on the exhaust manifold only? Looks like 5 total - 1 front and 1 rear and 3 in the middle.

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13 minutes ago, inline6 said:

Yes, that is helpful. What is the diameter and thickness of the flat washers used on the exhaust manifold only? Looks like 5 total - 1 front and 1 rear and 3 in the middle.

The thin ones are 21.5mm OD x 8.5mm ID x 2.5mm thick. Over the next couple of days I will mark up a picture with the occurrence of each type and post it here.

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Posted (edited)

@Namerowregarding your original post about studs vs bolts for the upper six intake manifold fasteners, I found something interesting in the 1973 JDM S30 parts fiche. The nut (item 32) is described by two options, one a nut and the other "BOLT - fixing manifold". These pages are for up to 1973-2. Not exactly clear but interesting none the less.

1973 JDM Parts 7-1 Manifold.JPG

The studs are shown on a different page for the cylinder head,

1973 JDM Parts 4-1 Cyl Head.JPG

The JDM parts book has great illustrations and in a lot of cases more detail than the N.A. parts book.  It can be found here:

Thanks @hr369

Edited by CanTechZ
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17 hours ago, CanTechZ said:

Here are some pics from my 7/70, after removing the intake and exhaust manifolds, I replaced the hardware in the locations that I found them. No lockwashers are used, except for the two capscrews that attach the thermostat housing. The thick exhaust manifold washers are 23.6mm OD x 9.0mm ID x 6.1mm thick on mine. The intake capscrews have "7" and "T" and "R" marks. Hope this helps.

20220619_131116.jpg

From you picture, I see that of the 6 T R 7 bolts, only numbers 1, 3, and 6 have flat washers.  The other three didn't have a washer... of any kind?  Do you know if your intake manifold has been taken off at any point?  

Out of all the hardware on the car, that used by the factory on the intake manifold is most unusual in my opinion.

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20 minutes ago, inline6 said:

From you picture, I see that of the 6 T R 7 bolts, only numbers 1, 3, and 6 have flat washers.  The other three didn't have a washer... of any kind?  Do you know if your intake manifold has been taken off at any point?  

Out of all the hardware on the car, that used by the factory on the intake manifold is most unusual in my opinion.

I've owned the car since 1978 and the only time that I am aware the intake was off would have been during a rebuild in the early eighties, that was done at my local Datsun dealership, Chilliwack Datsun, before they changed to the Nissan name. Those three screws are also for mounting the fuel rail, I'm thinking that the mounting brackets act as a washer in those areas so as not to have bolt length issues. Here's a pic when I was loosening the fasteners prior to removal.

20200530_135058 (1).jpg

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Posted (edited)

I was thinking about the fuel rail, and how it came into play, but didn't recall exactly where the brackets were.  Thanks for the pic.  If you have a chance to get the dims on the flat washers that go under those T R 7 bolts, please share those as well.  I am updating my documentation of all my 240z's hardware which I shared once before in another thread.  

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cmnw0F8N7B3VknCzNwGkfN2SGmIHdFJhDjARv3jkxNI/edit#gid=0

I have updated my Excel copy quite a bit as I have been going through all of the hardware that I got back from plating.  I have been putting it back in the zip lock bags with my labels of where they go.  Though slow, it is going very well.  It's amazing how much of the hardware is unique to its location on the car. 

I will be updating the Google sheet for everyone after I have completed sorting and cataloging all of the hardware.

Edited by inline6
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7 minutes ago, inline6 said:

I was thinking about the fuel rail, and how it came into play, but didn't recall exactly where the bracket were.  Thanks for the pic.  If you have a chance to get the dims on the flat washers that go under those T R 7 bolts, please share those as well.  I am updating my documentation of all my 240z's hardware which I shared once before in another thread.  

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cmnw0F8N7B3VknCzNwGkfN2SGmIHdFJhDjARv3jkxNI/edit#gid=0

I have updated my Excel copy quite a bit as I have been going through all of the hardware that I got back from platint.  I have been putting it back in the zip lock bags with my labels of where they go.  Though slow, it is going very well.  It's amazing how much of the hardware is unique to its location on the car. 

I will be updating the Google sheet for everyone after I have completed sorting and backing all of the hardware.

The washers on the intake bolts (M8 x 35mm long) are the same as the thin exhaust washers, 21.5mm OD x 8.5mm ID x 2.5mm thick.

Thanks for sharing your fastener spreadsheet.

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Posted (edited)

Any numbers on the head of the longer of the two thermostat housing to cyl head bolts?

*Edit: I tried zooming in on the pics you supplied above.  I think I see something, but can't make it out.  Does that long bolt that secures the thermostat housing to the head have these markings on the head?

I have 5 of these.  I thought they were all for holding the transmission bellhousing to the back of the engine, but maybe one of these is for the thermostat housing.

IMG_20220621_212951.jpg

Edited by inline6
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On 6/20/2022 at 5:34 AM, CanTechZ said:

Here are some pics from my 7/70, after removing the intake and exhaust manifolds, I replaced the hardware in the locations that I found them. No lockwashers are used, except for the two capscrews that attach the thermostat housing. The thick exhaust manifold washers are 23.6mm OD x 9.0mm ID x 6.1mm thick on mine. The intake capscrews have "7" and "T" and "R" marks. Hope this helps.

20220619_131116.jpg

20220619_131156.jpg

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Thanks for the pictures, my #2146 has the same “ TR 7 “ for upper six-location . I was thinking this was a aftermarket one supplied in the US , so I was almost going to throw it away . Like I showed in my thread, I have got started to disassemble it’s engine, I have got some bolts and nuts from my local Nissan . Some of them were altered their part number just a little bit, but yes they are qualified superseded parts .
 

I still can’t find out why the parts catalog says 6 studs for upper location at first , I checked my JDM and export catalogs issued in Nov 1969 , Dec 1970 , they don’t list bolts for that location. 
In March 1972 , JDM parts catalog listed six bolts for the upper location. 

But seems many of our cars have 6 bolts from the beginning before March 1972 , including my car . By the way , my 2146 had a maintenance work once or twice long time ago , so chances are high for using six bolts at some point .


Interesting! 

Kats

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13 hours ago, inline6 said:

Any numbers on the head of the longer of the two thermostat housing to cyl head bolts?

*Edit: I tried zooming in on the pics you supplied above.  I think I see something, but can't make it out.  Does that long bolt that secures the thermostat housing to the head have these markings on the head?

I have 5 of these.  I thought they were all for holding the transmission bellhousing to the back of the engine, but maybe one of these is for the thermostat housing.

 

On mine I don't see any markings on the head of that bolt, even using a 5.5X loupe. The short bolt is a recessed hex head type with "4" on it.

20220622_053617.jpg

20220622_053636.jpg

 

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Ok - thanks for that info!  I seem to be missing that bolt for my car.   I will have to attempt to find one in my spares.  If you get a chance, I'd love to have the specs (e.g. yellow chromate hex head bolt - M8 X 1.25 - ?? (length in mm) under head, and ?? length in mm threaded.

 

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9 hours ago, inline6 said:

Ok - thanks for that info!  I seem to be missing that bolt for my car.   I will have to attempt to find one in my spares.  If you get a chance, I'd love to have the specs (e.g. yellow chromate hex head bolt - M8 X 1.25 - ?? (length in mm) under head, and ?? length in mm threaded.

 

Mine is 70mm long (under head) with 25mm thread length. The short one is 30mm long with 24mm thread length. Best I can tell they are yellow zinc (chromate) plated, but there is not much evidence left. Both have a lockwasher, no flat washer.

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Posted (edited)

Remember to be extra careful when selecting the longer of the two thermostat housing to head bolts! It penetrates the head and can come in contact with the timing chain guide. More than one unfortunate soul has broken the guide in the process. (Cough cough)

The right length is under 70 mm IIRC, something like 63mm? The fiche part number is not a 08xxx that gives you the bolt spec as least not in the fiche I have :  11063-21001

#41 in this fiche, #38 in the fiche shown above.

0DA224F6-B208-4E7D-ACB2-E54B605B9058.jpeg

Edited by zKars
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Posted (edited)

For reference, as I promised in post #33 here is a picture marked up with the bolt, washer and nut locations as they are on my long time own 7/70.

EDIT - center top stud changed to "B" thin type as observed by @inline6 see post #48 below, thanks

image.png

Here is picture of the nut and washers noted above in blue and red.

image.png

In the parts book the exhaust manifold stud in this location supports the coolant pipe that goes around the back of the block and the rear engine lifting lug. and no flat washer is used, just a nut and lockwasher. The JDM parts book show it more clearly than the N.A. book.

 

image.png

 

Edited by CanTechZ
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21 minutes ago, zKars said:

Remember to be extra careful when selecting the longer of the two thermostat housing to head bolts! It penetrates the head and can come in contact with the timing chain guide. More than one unfortunate soul has broken the guide in the process. (Cough cough)

The right length is under 70 mm IIRC, something like 63mm? The fiche part number is not a 08xxx that gives you the bolt spec as least not in the fiche I have :  11063-21001

#41 in this fiche, #38 in the fiche shown above.

 

Thanks for this Jim, good to know. I just had another look at my long bolt and it only appears to use about 6mm thread engagement length, based on where the rust starts. When I put my caliper through that M8 hole in the head it bottoms at about 15mm when it contacts the guide as it is currently adjusted. Definitely something to be aware of, thanks again.

 

image.png

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12 hours ago, CanTechZ said:

For reference, as I promised in post #33 here is a picture marked up with the bolt, washer and nut locations as they are on my long time own 7/70.

image.png

Here is picture of the nut and washers noted above in blue and red.

image.png

In the parts book the exhaust manifold stud in this location supports the coolant pipe that goes around the back of the block and the rear engine lifting lug. and no flat washer is used, just a nut and lockwasher. The JDM parts book show it more clearly than the N.A. book.

 

image.png

 

For what it is worth, the nut you have on the rear engine lift hook looks to me like an original exhaust manifold to down pipe nut.  I think they are made of some type of alloy - they are not plated.  You could polish it a bit and see if it shines like a new penny.  It is possible some of your hardware got moved around a bit from the factory locations.  Most of it looks right, and I can't conclusively say, but the other pieces that look suspect to me are the stacked "B" washers at the engine lift hook location under that nut, and the thick "D" washer at the center top stud for the exhaust manifold to the head (6 required and you have 7).  On your engine, "B" washers are in all the other locations that secure only the exhaust manifold to the head.  So, it seems to me that the center top stud should have a "B" instead of a "D".  I think the "D" washers are used only on the six locations that bridge from exhaust manifold to intake manifold.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, inline6 said:

For what it is worth, the nut you have on the rear engine lift hook looks to me like an original exhaust manifold to down pipe nut.  I think they are made of some type of alloy - they are not plated.  You could polish it a bit and see if it shines like a new penny.  It is possible some of your hardware got moved around a bit from the factory locations.  Most of it looks right, and I can't conclusively say, but the other pieces that look suspect to me are the stacked "B" washers at the engine lift hook location under that nut, and the thick "D" washer at the center top stud for the exhaust manifold to the head (6 required and you have 7).  On your engine, "B" washers are in all the other locations that secure only the exhaust manifold to the head.  So, it seems to me that the center top stud should have a "B" instead of a "D".  I think the "D" washers are used only on the six locations that bridge from exhaust manifold to intake manifold.

Thanks for proofing my work, you are correct on the washer at the the top center stud, good eye. I have edited the image above to reflect this, it was a typo. And thanks for clarifying the type of nut on the rear stud, I was wondering about that. I believe that someone did add the stack of washers and that tall nut when the header and a custom exhaust were added. That location should have a lockwasher and regular nut, no flat washers. Thanks again.

Edited by CanTechZ
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