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Duffy's 1/71 Series 1 240z build


duffymahoney

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Do you really need a scope?  A slow turn of the switch and a meter should tell the story.  It would have to be controlled by the width of the moving contact.  If it bridges On and Start it's "bumpless", if it doesn't there's a bump.  p.s. the bridging would be only at the "between" point.  Not when it was fully to the Start position.

It might be in one of CO's links but I remember people having problems with their Haltechs or other EFI systems losing communication from Start to On or vice-versa.  The computer resets and it causes problems.  Can't remember what the cause or solution was though.

Edited by Zed Head
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New switch has power to B/W on start, but not the G/W.  I will check again when i get home with clamps, but that is what I found.  Also my old switch if you barely turn it start, it catches 50% of the time.  That was Richards idea.  

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Posted (edited)

Ok, if I turn the ignition from on to start and not turn it far. My new ignition and old work fine this way. Both have issues if I turn it further to the clockwise. 
 

My next giant question is if I turn it full hard to the right or clockwise. The starter doesn’t kick on at all. This is with both ignition switches. Is this normal? 
 

You can see my haltech ecu on the passenger kick panel 
 

 

Edited by duffymahoney
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Wow. Nice switch. Hope that was a really really rare occurrence. 

So your question "if I turn it full hard to the right or clockwise. The starter doesn’t kick on at all. Is this normal?"

In my experience, the answer is "No, that is not normal." It sounds like your lock is travelling too far and going PAST the location that it should rotate. I've seen situations where internal wear makes it such that the switch doesn't turn far enough, but I don't think I've seen it turning TOO far.

I'll dig some lock parts out when I get the chance and see if I can come up with any ideas.

 

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43 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

Wow. Nice switch. Hope that was a really really rare occurrence. 

So your question "if I turn it full hard to the right or clockwise. The starter doesn’t kick on at all. Is this normal?"

In my experience, the answer is "No, that is not normal." It sounds like your lock is travelling too far and going PAST the location that it should rotate. I've seen situations where internal wear makes it such that the switch doesn't turn far enough, but I don't think I've seen it turning TOO far.

I'll dig some lock parts out when I get the chance and see if I can come up with any ideas.

 

Well I am doubting my tests on my new switch. Since it had a broken terminal. 

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It is completely conceivable that your old switch has burned up contacts inside and turning it as far as you can (to full stop) in the clockwise direction would break the contact. And of course, it would be more concerning if your new switch did the same thing.

So check it again with your new-new switch when it arrives, and let us know. Let's hope if was the loose terminal.

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Posted (edited)

Well this is the oem new switch. The B/W loses 12v during cranking. The G/W only gets 12v during cranking. 
 

I think my option is to tie both parts of the switch together so I get 12v in the on and during cranking. Thoughts? Again, I am not using the stock coil and the stock tach wiring. 
 

 

Edited by duffymahoney
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I've lost track of what the goal is.  You said that you were losing power when the switch was on.  Seems like the new switch is now working correctly. 

You didn't say if there was a point between On and Start where neither wire had power.  

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16 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

I've lost track of what the goal is.  You said that you were losing power when the switch was on.  Seems like the new switch is now working correctly. 

You didn't say if there was a point between On and Start where neither wire had power.  

Lost power to the ECU while cranking, everything works fine in the on position.  If I barely crank the ECU stays on and the car starts.  

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14 minutes ago, duffymahoney said:

If I barely crank the ECU stays on and the car starts.  

That seems to answer the "bump" question, that would be the bridging point inside the switch. 

Seems like you could run a wire from the Start circuit to the ECU power supply and it would work.  Probably need a diode so that you don't backfeed the Starter circuit through the On position.  Similar to the 240Z alternator swap problem.

You could also just add a separate power circuit for the ECU, with a switch or button.  Might be good theft protection also.

 

Or does this go all the way back to the original power supply wire problem?  The overloaded wire.  SteveJ's solutions.  Anyway, there are several solution possibilities.  Relays are your friend when you're adding new loads.

 

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9 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

That seems to answer the "bump" question, that would be the bridging point inside the switch. 

Seems like you could run a wire from the Start circuit to the ECU power supply and it would work.  Probably need a diode so that you don't backfeed the Starter circuit through the On position.  Similar to the 240Z alternator swap problem.

You could also just add a separate power circuit for the ECU, with a switch or button.  Might be good theft protection also.

 

Or does this go all the way back to the original power supply wire problem?  The overloaded wire.  SteveJ's solutions.  Anyway, there are several solution possibilities.  Relays are your friend when you're adding new loads.

 

The pink ecu wire, doesn't carry a load, it supplys the relay to the ECU.  I would need power in the ON and the START.  The best way to do that is now my?  

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I think that you're back to the original point of your quest.  You have a new switch now and you know how it functions.  "Best" is very subjective.  

I think that the "key" point here is that you have the possibility of continuous power from the ignition switch from On to Start and back to On.

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Probably the easiest way to ensure you have power at start and on is to jumper the BW from the ignition switch to the GW at the ballast resistor. You won't backfeed the circuit for the starter solenoid.

After watching Duffy's video, I ran a test on my 73. I disconnected the solenoid wire and took apart the connection for the BW and GW wires under the hood that I did put together to jumper out the ballast. (BW cannot backfeed the GW wire.)

I put the turn signal into a right turn and put the key in start. The turn signal flashed, meaning in my 73 with an original switch (AFAIK) supplies power to the BW wire in start and on.

 

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I picked the S circuit just because it was the first thing that came to mind.

Wrong, pretty sure, the stuff below.  Corrected farther down the page.

If you connect GW and BW then you'll be backfeeding the Acc circuit during Start.  #4.  IF it's a 240Z switch.  Check out the 1976 280Z switch in the next post.

image.pngimage.png

 

 

 

Edited by Zed Head
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Here is a 1976 280Z.  240Z next to it.  Ig and R ((R)esistor/ballast) both get power on a 280Z switch.  I'd test that switch's Ig and R pins and see what kind of switch you have.  See if Ig and R both have continuity at Start.

I thought this was a simple problem but it's really not.  Maybe that's why they changed the switch, and the wiring.

image.pngimage.png

Edited by Zed Head
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3 hours ago, SteveJ said:

Probably the easiest way to ensure you have power at start and on is to jumper the BW from the ignition switch to the GW at the ballast resistor. You won't backfeed the circuit for the starter solenoid.

After watching Duffy's video, I ran a test on my 73. I disconnected the solenoid wire and took apart the connection for the BW and GW wires under the hood that I did put together to jumper out the ballast. (BW cannot backfeed the GW wire.)

I put the turn signal into a right turn and put the key in start. The turn signal flashed, meaning in my 73 with an original switch (AFAIK) supplies power to the BW wire in start and on.

 

Will you explain this a little more?  

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1 hour ago, duffymahoney said:

Will you explain this a little more?  

In the stock wiring, the GW wire has power with the key in Start and goes over to the tachometer. This wire also branches over to the ballast resistor. The BW wire branches out to the engine bay to the other side of the ballast resistor.

image.png

The other branch of the BW wire goes to the center stack where it splits again. One branch goes to the fuse box and the other goes to a 2 pin T-shaped connector.  You could get a connector from Vintage Connections that will let you plug an inline fuse into the circuit and go out to the pink wire on the Haltech. http://www.vintageconnections.com/Products/Detail/79 

You could also get a single pin connector to attach the inline fuse to the pink wire: http://www.vintageconnections.com/Products/Detail/78

The only caveat is that you can't have the GW wire going to the tachometer connector anymore.

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You don't need the diodes. What I gave you was a very simple way to wire. You said you aren't using the GW wire for the tach, so all you would need to do is land the GW and BW wire at the same place in the engine bay or replace the terminals on them now for a male/female bullet. Why do you want to do 10 times more work?

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Here is the connection in my car of the GW and BW wires near the coil in the engine bay. 

20220829_191043.jpg

The 2 pin connector in the center stack is easily identified by the T shape with BW and G wires connected to it.

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Earlier I said that the Accessory pin would be powered if you did that.   I think that I misunderstood how the switch works on the inside.  The diagram is misleading.  It looks like a circuit illustration but really it just shows what's connected to Battery at any position of the switch.  Sorry about the confusion.  If column #4 was connected to column #2 you would not be able to use Accessory alone, without having power to the the Ignition circuit.  Therefore they must not be connected.

 

Is there an effort here to keep the original wires intact?  Seems odd to have powered wires run all the way in to the engine bay that don't actually serve their original purpose.

I think that you could connect the pins on the back of the switch and achieve the same result as connecting them in the engine bay.  A simple back probed jumper at the connection.

 

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5 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

Earlier I said that the Accessory pin would be powered if you did that.   I think that I misunderstood how the switch works on the inside.  The diagram is misleading.  It looks like a circuit illustration but really it just shows what's connected to Battery at any position of the switch.  Sorry about the confusion.  If column #4 was connected to column #2 you would not be able to use Accessory alone, without having power to the the Ignition circuit.  Therefore they must not be connected.

 

Is there an effort here to keep the original wires intact?  Seems odd to have powered wires run all the way in to the engine bay that don't actually serve their original purpose.

I think that you could connect the pins on the back of the switch and achieve the same result as connecting them in the engine bay.  A simple back probed jumper at the connection.

 

It's better to keep as much of the original wires intact, but it's easy to "kill" the GW and BW wires in the engine bay, I outlined that earlier. However, Duffy was hindered by the evaporator on the aftermarket AC. The wiring suggestions I gave a couple of comments prior to this one would be easy to implement.

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