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Duffy's 1/71 Series 1 240z build


duffymahoney

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7 minutes ago, duffymahoney said:

Well I found one issue. That seems to come and go, but getting worse. It used to be like 1 out 10 times. Now it 9 out 10. Ignition switch is failing 

IMG_0461.MOV

Your MOV files aren't embedding properly. You'd have better luck uploading them to YouTube and linking them that way.

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4 minutes ago, SteveJ said:

Your MOV files aren't embedding properly. You'd have better luck uploading them to YouTube and linking them that way.

This site seems to have issues with it.  Basically my ignition switch while cranking doesn't give power to B/W wire.  I am replacing it.  

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23 hours ago, duffymahoney said:

This site seems to have issues with it.  Basically my ignition switch while cranking doesn't give power to B/W wire.  I am replacing it.  

Which BW wire are you talking about? The BW at the switch doesn't get power until the key is in the ON position.

Maybe this video will help you figure out what you're looking at.

(Note: Video removed as I cannot confirm at this time that the switch operates as shown in the wiring diagrams.)

Edited by SteveJ
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2 hours ago, SteveJ said:

Which BW wire are you talking about? The BW at the switch doesn't get power until the key is in the ON position.

Maybe this video will help you figure out what you're looking at.

 

B/W from my ignition, a bunch of keyed 12v also seem to be affected by the switch not working correctly. I am guessing it's slow breaking/ getting worse?  $40 is an easy thing to test. Also it's like a 5 minute change out.  

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2 hours ago, duffymahoney said:

B/W from my ignition, a bunch of keyed 12v also seem to be affected by the switch not working correctly. I am guessing it's slow breaking/ getting worse?  $40 is an easy thing to test. Also it's like a 5 minute change out.  

Now, if there are issues when the key is in ON, that's a different kettle of fish, as long as you understand it doesn't see voltage during the cranking cycle.

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5 hours ago, SteveJ said:

as long as you understand it (B/W wire) doesn't see voltage during the cranking cycle.

There was some discussion about such things a while ago, but I can't find the discussion. I remember that it happened because I created and posted this pic culled from the various wiring diagrams over the years:
igswitches.jpg

The wiring diagrams seem to indicate that starting in 73, that B/W wire is hot in both ON and START, but in 72 it is not? And I don't have reliable wiring diagrams for 70 or 71, so I can't tell if 72 is just an anomaly. It always seemed like a documentation error to me.

Have you confirmed how it really works?

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7 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

There was some discussion about such things a while ago, but I can't find the discussion. I remember that it happened because I created and posted this pic culled from the various wiring diagrams over the years:
igswitches.jpg

The wiring diagrams seem to indicate that starting in 73, that B/W wire is hot in both ON and START, but in 72 it is not? And I don't have reliable wiring diagrams for 70 or 71, so I can't tell if 72 is just an anomaly. It always seemed like a documentation error to me.

Have you confirmed how it really works?

I remember seeing the post of the ignition switch wiring diagrams through the years. It's easy enough to verify on my 73. I just have to lift the solenoid wire off and have the turn signals on. If I have turn signals blinking while starting, then it has power while cranking. 

The 70 FSM indicates it is not powered during start. The wiring diagram in the 71 supplement shows the same, and the 71 Body and Chassis Part 2 PDF matches.

image.pngimage.png

The parts manual also indicates there were separate designs originally.

image.png

I still have a new D8700-E4629 (in Beck Arnley packaging) that according to Courtesy Parts's website "48700-E4600, 48700-E4625, 48700-E4629"

I did a continuity test on that switch and here are the results: (Red indicates continuity with the WR wire, and black indicates no continuity.)

OFF

image.png

Acc

image.png

On

image.png

Start

image.png

So the BW is hot on that switch in start. Either D8700-E4629 is not faithful to the original design or the wiring diagram is wrong. Either way, I took the video Private until I can confirm so I don't muddy the waters with it.

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2 hours ago, SteveJ said:

The parts manual also indicates there were separate designs originally.

I have seen that the early ignition switches were different. Mechanically at least. The early switches used just one mounting screw to hold the switch to the back of the lock assembly, while the later switches used two mounting screws. And because of the mounting screw position(s), those two switches were not interchangeable.

In other words, if you have an early ignition lock assy, you would not be able to go to Rock-Auto and simply buy an ignition switch for the back of it. R-A sells the new style switch and it won't fit the back of the old lock bodies.

All that aside... The POINT is, I do know that the early switches are MECHANICALLY different than the later style, but I do not know if they are ELECTRICALLY different as well. And when I say "early", I'm not putting a hard date on that. I don't know when they changed over to the two mounting ear switch.

I know I'm muddying the waters with a small point here (about whether the B/W wire has power on it when in START), but it might depend on the year and whether the switch has been replaced in the past. I suspect many of the ignition lock assys have worn out over the past and have been replaced with newer versions.

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19 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

I have seen that the early ignition switches were different. Mechanically at least. The early switches used just one mounting screw to hold the switch to the back of the lock assembly, while the later switches used two mounting screws. And because of the mounting screw position(s), those two switches were not interchangeable.

In other words, if you have an early ignition lock assy, you would not be able to go to Rock-Auto and simply buy an ignition switch for the back of it. R-A sells the new style switch and it won't fit the back of the old lock bodies.

All that aside... The POINT is, I do know that the early switches are MECHANICALLY different than the later style, but I do not know if they are ELECTRICALLY different as well. And when I say "early", I'm not putting a hard date on that. I don't know when they changed over to the two mounting ear switch.

I know I'm muddying the waters with a small point here (about whether the B/W wire has power on it when in START), but it might depend on the year and whether the switch has been replaced in the past. I suspect many of the ignition lock assys have worn out over the past and have been replaced with newer versions.

I don't disagree with you except to say it's not a small point. I would say it's a moderately sized point. 

It would be great if someone with an earlier car could confirm how the "single screw" switch operates electrically. It's pretty easy, as I mentioned before. Take the BY off the solenoid, switch the turn signal switch to left or right, and put the key in start. If the turn signals flash, the BW wire is powered during start.

@jfa.series1 Does your car have an original switch?

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4 hours ago, SteveJ said:

I remember seeing the post of the ignition switch wiring diagrams through the years. It's easy enough to verify on my 73. I just have to lift the solenoid wire off and have the turn signals on. If I have turn signals blinking while starting, then it has power while cranking. 

The 70 FSM indicates it is not powered during start. The wiring diagram in the 71 supplement shows the same, and the 71 Body and Chassis Part 2 PDF matches.

image.pngimage.png

The parts manual also indicates there were separate designs originally.

image.png

I still have a new D8700-E4629 (in Beck Arnley packaging) that according to Courtesy Parts's website "48700-E4600, 48700-E4625, 48700-E4629"

I did a continuity test on that switch and here are the results: (Red indicates continuity with the WR wire, and black indicates no continuity.)

OFF

image.png

Acc

image.png

On

image.png

Start

image.png

So the BW is hot on that switch in start. Either D8700-E4629 is not faithful to the original design or the wiring diagram is wrong. Either way, I took the video Private until I can confirm so I don't muddy the waters with it.

Wow lots of good info! You would think that it would need to be hot while cranking.  I sometimes get it to be hot for 2-3 starts in a row, then it stops.  

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1 hour ago, Captain Obvious said:

I have seen that the early ignition switches were different. Mechanically at least. The early switches used just one mounting screw to hold the switch to the back of the lock assembly, while the later switches used two mounting screws. And because of the mounting screw position(s), those two switches were not interchangeable.

In other words, if you have an early ignition lock assy, you would not be able to go to Rock-Auto and simply buy an ignition switch for the back of it. R-A sells the new style switch and it won't fit the back of the old lock bodies.

All that aside... The POINT is, I do know that the early switches are MECHANICALLY different than the later style, but I do not know if they are ELECTRICALLY different as well. And when I say "early", I'm not putting a hard date on that. I don't know when they changed over to the two mounting ear switch.

I know I'm muddying the waters with a small point here (about whether the B/W wire has power on it when in START), but it might depend on the year and whether the switch has been replaced in the past. I suspect many of the ignition lock assys have worn out over the past and have been replaced with newer versions.

I have 2 screws, mine is a 1/71.  

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2 minutes ago, duffymahoney said:

Wow lots of good info! You would think that it would need to be hot while cranking.  I sometimes get it to be hot for 2-3 starts in a row, then it stops.  

I could move my ecu to the G/W circuit.  I bought a new OEM switch.  I have a inline fuse coming for that.  

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33 minutes ago, duffymahoney said:

Wow lots of good info! You would think that it would need to be hot while cranking.  I sometimes get it to be hot for 2-3 starts in a row, then it stops.  

As designed by Nissan, the BW wire from the ignition switch is not the primary source for power to the coil while cranking. The GW (or GL depending upon the drawing) wire is. The reason is that the GW gives a hotter spark while starting, but in normal operation, the BW wire runs through the ballast resistor to drop the voltage to reduce the wear on the points. 

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34 minutes ago, SteveJ said:

As designed by Nissan, the BW wire from the ignition switch is not the primary source for power to the coil while cranking. The GW (or GL depending upon the drawing) wire is. The reason is that the GW gives a hotter spark while starting, but in normal operation, the BW wire runs through the ballast resistor to drop the voltage to reduce the wear on the points. 

Very cool, I didn't know the ballasts design.  That makes total sense! 

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12 minutes ago, duffymahoney said:

Very cool, I didn't know the ballasts design.  That makes total sense! 

If you spend too much time on this board, like I do, you learn things like that. I try to absorb as much as possible from the smart people here.

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44 minutes ago, duffymahoney said:

I am waiting on the stock style terminals to finish it, but I still think the switch is to blame.  Which sucks.  

The ignition switch is very simple.  You could just measure continuity through the pins on the back and determine if it's bad.  The pins are marked.

image.png

image.png

image.png

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3 hours ago, SteveJ said:

I don't disagree with you except to say it's not a small point. I would say it's a moderately sized point. 

It would be great if someone with an earlier car could confirm how the "single screw" switch operates electrically. It's pretty easy, as I mentioned before. Take the BY off the solenoid, switch the turn signal switch to left or right, and put the key in start. If the turn signals flash, the BW wire is powered during start.

@jfa.series1 Does your car have an original switch?

While the electrical component of my ignition switch has been replaced twice over the years I still have the OE mechanical part of it. Let me know what you are looking for.

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25 minutes ago, jfa.series1 said:

While the electrical component of my ignition switch has been replaced twice over the years I still have the OE mechanical part of it. Let me know what you are looking for.

I'm thinking that if you replaced the electrical component, the replacement may have design changes from the original. 

Unfortunately it's a part that sees a lot of use over the lifespan of the car, so finding a completely original switch on an early car could be a challenge.

This really doesn't go to solve Duffy's issue. It's really just to validate the wiring drawings, so I should make a separate thread for this rabbit hole.

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I had a switch on a 78 parts car with a loose S pin.  The staked area had loosened.  I rapped it a couple of times with a chisel and fixed it.  

image.png

Edited by Zed Head
come loose? become loose? > loosened
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And just so I'm positive that I wasn't seeing things, here's a couple threads that talk about the old one eared ignition switch:

https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/45631-ignition-switch/

https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/49960-240z-ignition-problem/

Good pics in those threads. Like this one:
100_2153.JPG

 

So it's completely conceivable that those older one-eared switches did not follow the same power map as the newer two-eared versions, but without a sample, I'm not sure if we will be able to figure out if that's the case, or if it's a documentation error.

Me personally? I find it really odd that they would kill the power to the ballast resistor while in the START position. I would expect them to keep that powered in both ON and START. You need a bump-less transfer between those two when you are starting the car. You don't want a dead spot between those two positions.

 

Edited by Captain Obvious
more detail
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13 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

And just so I'm positive that I wasn't seeing things, here's a couple threads that talk about the old one eared ignition switch:

https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/45631-ignition-switch/

https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/49960-240z-ignition-problem/

Good pics in those threads. Like this one:
100_2153.JPG

 

So it's completely conceivable that those older one-eared switches did not follow the same power map as the newer two-eared versions, but without a sample, I'm not sure if we will be able to figure out if that's the case, or if it's a documentation error.

Me personally? I find it really odd that they would kill the power to the ballast resistor while in the START position. I would expect them to keep that powered in both ON and START. You need a bump-less transfer between those two when you are starting the car. You don't want a dead spot between those two positions.

 

I will test mine when I get it! I would guess it would have power in the start position.  

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14 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

And just so I'm positive that I wasn't seeing things, here's a couple threads that talk about the old one eared ignition switch:

https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/45631-ignition-switch/

https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/49960-240z-ignition-problem/

Good pics in those threads. Like this one:
 

 

So it's completely conceivable that those older one-eared switches did not follow the same power map as the newer two-eared versions, but without a sample, I'm not sure if we will be able to figure out if that's the case, or if it's a documentation error.

Me personally? I find it really odd that they would kill the power to the ballast resistor while in the START position. I would expect them to keep that powered in both ON and START. You need a bump-less transfer between those two when you are starting the car. You don't want a dead spot between those two positions.

 

It is an interesting mystery. The wiring diagram was probably done well after the parts were designed, so it's not surprising. Humans were involved, and they didn't have the neat CAD software available to fix their mistakes quickly. Just today I noticed an anomaly in the wiring diagram for the intermittent relay in the 73. 

I would need to hook up my oscilloscope to see if the transfer is truly bumpless between start and on for the IG terminal on the switch. I don't think it is, but with the inertia of the engine once it fires, it could handle the very short gap in time.

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