gundee

1970 Z432 For Sale - California

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3 minutes ago, That Ozzy Guy said:

 

The only numbers that speak is the cash someone parts with to own one. Your reasoning, however valid, idealistic or delusional, is moot and holds precisely zero relevance to those that own or aspire to own a Z432.

The market is the market for reasons beyond reason.

The price of what these cars are going for is really not that important, what is important is to cut through the BS and focus on the facts and not the spin. This car in particular suffers from serious spin.

Very true about the market.

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16 minutes ago, grannyknot said:

You know the performance numbers of these cars as well as anyone, perhaps better, yet you keep going on about diamond rings, oil paintings and bubble jet printers. The numbers speak for themselves, the reason you won't address those numbers is because they prove my case and not yours.

Your case? It seems to be one of repeated miscomprehension and lack of imagination.

You talk about "the numbers". Here are a few other 432 numbers for you to juggle with: 5, 192, 6, 15.1, 400, 25. There's some fun to be had in guessing what they refer to in this context. Here's a clue: Your 'NA 240Z' didn't have them. 

But of course, if you focus only on "the numbers" you miss the point. Sorry but it's something that you either get or you don't. As xs10shl pointed out, somewhere out there in the ether there's a plain vanilla 911E owner protesting that his car isn't all that much different than the 911 RS changing hands for twenty times more. Surely that 911E owner doesn't need to be told that it's not all about "the numbers"?  When someone buys a 911RS they are not simply buying a set of performance figures. When you give a girl a diamond ring, you're not just giving her a stone.

So you're saying that - given the free choice - you'd give her the paste over the diamond?    

 

 

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55 minutes ago, Blue said:

btw my equation still holds:

$225k = $25k for the S30 and $200k for the engine and badges. :pow:

 

So the self-styled "Ultimate Z Junkie" thinks that a 432 is all about an engine and a set of badges?

Actually you might be lucky enough - if you put the effort into it - to find a proper 432-variant S20 engine for a lot less than your quoted $200k. About $50k might suffice, but you've still got a very long shopping list to fill (because a 432 isn't just an engine and a set of badges...). Part Number One is a genuine PS30 unibody, chassis number and papers, and that's going to cost you a lot more than your quoted $25k. If you're looking for an S30 you're looking for the wrong thing. If I'm mistaken about that then I've unwittingly hit the jackpot with my car. 

So what's the Dollar figure for the history, kudos, romance and all those other nebulous properties that come with such machinery?

 

 

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It's just a car dude. I have an S2000 that is worth $8000 that will do circles around the 432 and has one of the best hp/litre engines in the world for a plain old production car.  It puts a smile on my face driving just as much as getting a thumbs up when some one passes me in my Z.  Cars dude... just cars.

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Does HS30 own #13?  What's funny here is that these conversations will probably become part of the car's provenance.  Might be degrading the value of his own car,and maybe even the value of all early Datsuns.  The type of owner affects the perception of the car.  Porsche owners are different from BMW owners are different from Range Rover owners.  Some interesting unintended consequences.  #13?  Don't want it, it was owned by that guy on classiczcars.com.

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2 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

Does HS30 own #13?  What's funny here is that these conversations will probably become part of the car's provenance.  Might be degrading the value of his own car,and maybe even the value of all early Datsuns.  The type of owner affects the perception of the car.  Porsche owners are different from BMW owners are different from Range Rover owners.  Some interesting unintended consequences.  #13?  Don't want it, it was owned by that guy on classiczcars.com.

I can't speak to ownership of #13, but in my experience, I've found the opposite largely to be true.  Cars that were once owned by known individuals knowledgeable about the marque tend to be worth a percentage more.  Cars owned by celebrities and dictators alike can be worth double.  And don't get me started on the many multiples over retail that people will pay for a car that was once owned by Steve McQueen.

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A sure sign the conversation is ending: a totally different car from a totally different era is presented as an alternate-use-case to whatever is currently being discussed.

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8 hours ago, Blue said:

It's just a car dude. I have an S2000 that is worth $8000 that will do circles around the 432 and has one of the best hp/litre engines in the world for a plain old production car.  It puts a smile on my face driving just as much as getting a thumbs up when some one passes me in my Z.  Cars dude... just cars.

Honda S2000? Great. Good car.

Now all you need is a time machine so you can take it back to 1969 and put it into the relevant context.

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8 hours ago, Zed Head said:

Does HS30 own #13?  What's funny here is that these conversations will probably become part of the car's provenance.  Might be degrading the value of his own car,and maybe even the value of all early Datsuns.  The type of owner affects the perception of the car.  Porsche owners are different from BMW owners are different from Range Rover owners.  Some interesting unintended consequences.  #13?  Don't want it, it was owned by that guy on classiczcars.com.

Have you been eating too much cheese before going to bed?

My point in bringing 'HLS30-00013' into the discussion was a (rhetorical) comparison regarding "the numbers". When 'HLS30-00013' was re-discovered/internet-publicised and discussed a few years back, somewhere among all the hyperbole mention was soon made of potential  value should the car ever come onto the open market. I think I'm correct in recalling that numbers well into six figures were being thrown around, and yet - in contrast with the 432 being discussed here - 'HLS30-00013' isn't really all that different than several hundred other 1969-built HLS30-prefixed cars, or several thousand 1970-built HLS30-prefixed cars. The "it's almost the same as..." argument doesn't work, does it?

Clearly the concept of 'value' is not solely about performance figures and/or relative content, and we still have not really got our teeth into the difference between the nebulous concept of 'value' vs the price...   

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The point of this thread is commentary on the price of a 432 for sale.

The relevant point I am making is that they are all just cars to me. Go from point A to point B on 4 wheels and have some fun. Others may hold them on pedestals and apply value to intangibles  but to me they are pretty lumps of metal with wheels. In fact I get just as much fun worikng on them as I do looking at them or driving them.

 

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9 hours ago, HS30-H said:

Your case? It seems to be one of repeated miscomprehension and lack of imagination.

You talk about "the numbers". Here are a few other 432 numbers for you to juggle with: 5, 192, 6, 15.1, 400, 25. There's some fun to be had in guessing what they refer to in this context. Here's a clue: Your 'NA 240Z' didn't have them. 

 

 

 

Agreed and I have already mentioned it.

You deliberately miss the point because it is in your interest to do so. Financially and egotisically you benefit from trying keep the myth and spin alive, you are the last person who can be objective about this subject.  

As always, enjoy your koolaid

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7 minutes ago, grannyknot said:

You deliberately miss the point because it is in your interest to do so. Financially and egotisically you benefit from trying keep the myth and spin alive, you are the last person who can be objective about this subject. 

Exactly what point am I missing? You seem to be trying to tell me that 911E man is right.

You're talking about money and ego again I see, the inference being that anyone who buys a 432 now is an egotist with more money than sense. That might hold some water if the buyer in question bought a bad one for more than he could sell it on for, but that's something we'd have to view on a case-by-case basis don't you think? I still think you've got an inverted snob's take on the matter.

I'm not sure I completely understand what benefit you are referring to above? I'm not a 432 owner, so how do I stand to gain here? I'm flattered that you'd think I have so much influence (shucks) but the market value of a PS30 Fairlady Z432 is not a function of anything I have said or done.

Your words "myth" and "spin" are telling. When the 432 debuted at the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show and Nissan put their top of the range model in pride of place on that rotating display stand, was it all about creating 'myth' and (literally) 'spin'? I don't think so. It was all about the package. When you classify your new car series as a 'Sports' then the most sporting iteration of that series - the most complete dynamic package for the sporting driver - is naturally going to presented as the top of the range. The 432 was the most expensive showroom stock S30-series Z when it was new (for good reason) and - with the exception of the 432R - has changed hands for the most money ever since. For the best part of 45 years that happened solely in Japan. What we are seeing recently is that a few eyes and ears outside Japan have been opened, and a few cars have been exported. Any "myth" or "spin" you might perceive has a solid foundation of 47 years of reputation and history built up by something that Nissan created for the specific purpose of being the cream of that particular crop. There might be a little hyperbolic sales patter and ill-informed flannel spun on top by the auction houses and dealers involved, but the asking prices are a function of something other than lies and exaggeration.

Presumably - as the ying to that yang - you think there's no "myth" or "spin" connected to the HLS30U and its sub variants? You haven't noticed us creating the zeitgeist where a 1969 production car is more valued - both physically and philosophically - than a 1/1970 and up car? It's not a conspiracy, its natural...   

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13 hours ago, Blue said:

$225k = $25k for the S30 and $200k for the engine and badges. :pow:

I'm glad your not my accountant...cause that math don't make sense to me...How well "restored" do you think most $25k HLS30's are anyway?

By that same token of being over-priced an early air cooled 911 is just a VW Beetle with a few panel and badging differences....oh and a whole lot of ego missing...

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So for those questioning the value riddle me this, why is a Toyota 2000GT a $1M + car now? What about a Ferrari GTO? Why are they worth $30M +? Surely these are all just cars that go point A to point B. No doubt many modern cars could do the job a lot better, cheaper, reliably and at a lower cost and fuel efficiency?

The Z432 needs to be viewed in the context of the fact that it was a car you could buy in late 1969, the engineering in the S20 is impressive and the parts and components that went with it. The fact that a LHD 240z (HLS30) can still be bought cheap is a function of large remaining supply, and unfortunately many were under appreciated. A similar era 911 would cost at least 3-4x a similar S30Z and yet I know which I'd prefer and do own.

If you don't see the value in the Z432 that's fine, clearly others do. Frankly I'm appalled at what has been done to many S30Z's and sadly continues to be done to them to this day. But that's what people want to do and until they have exhausted the supply of S30Z's to the point where you can no longer pick 1 up cheaply, I suspect it won't change. Thankfully those days are numbered and they can spend all their time cutting up S13/S14/AE86 etc.. until those become rare enough and desirable in about 20 years. Then someone will have the audacity to post an immaculate original 1 on a forum somewhere and be told it's over-priced. Thus the circle will be complete.

Edited by Gav240z
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You guys are still at it!?!  A whole-nother page worth!  Alan, you gotta quit baiting these....ah...intellectuals.  You have their panties all in a wad!

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The roads and infrastructure along with ownership costs have a bearing on the regional design and regional evolution of automobiles.  This in turn affects the population's appreciation of vehicles in that region through familiarization, cost, and function.

In the North America region, the S30 shape evokes a Datsun 240z model for most of the population .  They were ubiquitous and low-cost sports cars of the past giving great value for money. Most here will see the 432 the same way.... just a 240z with the steering on the wrong side and girly name badges. 

When they look at the differences, most here will not marvel at the 432's engine but will think that it would be too difficult to get parts and a V8 would give it better performance.   This may not be the same in other regions such as Europe or Asia but it is just how it is here in North America. 

Most of us will always think that the price difference of 240z's and 432's is not $200,000 as per the first post and as per the agreement of several of us in North America.  Of course there will be a small number who have other opinions on the price and girly name plates.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Blue said:

When they look at the differences, most here will not marvel at the 432's engine but will think that it would be too difficult to get parts and a V8 would give it better performance.   This may not be the same in other regions such as Europe or Asia but it is just how it is here in North America.

Most of us will always think that the price difference of 240z's and 432's is not $200,000 as per the first post and as per the agreement of several of us in North America. 

But the price difference of 240Zs (certainly the softened up and dumbed down versions...) and 432s demonstrably is averaging $200,000 lately. It's a fact. 

So what you're saying is that the North American market got what it wanted, or - by inference - wasn't sophisticated enough to handle anything much else? I would strongly disagree. First of all many other manufacturers sold complex sporting cars into the North American market with no problem, because there were serious buyers/drivers out there with the sophistication to appreciate them and the means to buy and look after them. Your "difficult to get parts" and "a V8 would give better performance" lines don't stack up unless you are referring to the base level market (which is pretty much the same people anywhere) . But secondly, when it came to the Z North America never got given the choice to prove anything different anyway.

LOVE the "girly badges" thing (what a gift! I'll quote you on that forever now). Personally speaking I think the 'Fairlady' name was a bit outdated by 1969 and could easily have been dropped, but Nissan wanted to link the S30-series to what came before it so I can see why they kept it. The genius part was the use of the letter 'Z' and all that went with it. Of course, '240' is all but meaningless and it is amusing to think that it was dreamed up in a last minute panic because the North American market would be scared to drive a 'Fairlady'. Presumably those people thought The Village People were perfect examples of heterosexual manhood?

If you hate the 'Fairlady' name then it makes me inclined to like it a bit more than I otherwise would. Thanks. 

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For regional differences, I guess you could go further and look at evolution.  For the most part, current North American society  evolved from many people leaving various parts of the world that offered very little for them in the form of opportunities or safety.  They came here and started a new world with new ideas.  You may not like what I said above but live here for a while and you will see what I mean.  Most here will agree with the original first post.

 

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8 minutes ago, Blue said:

For regional differences, I guess you could go further and look at evolution.  For the most part, current North American society  evolved from many people leaving various parts of the world that offered very little for them in the form of opportunities or safety.  They came here and started a new world with new ideas.  You may not like what I said above but live here for a while and you will see what I mean.  Most here will agree with the original first post.

 

But what does it even mean? It doesn't seem to stand up to even the lightest of scrutiny in the context of the discussion.

Nobody in North America got the chance to prove whether an S30-series Z with 'Fairlady' badging would sell (let alone one with a triple carbed 24v twin cam engine, close ratio 5-speed transmission, 4.44 plate LSD, electronic ignition, magnesium wheels, quick steering and sports-oriented springing, damping and ARBs) because they never had the choice put in front of them. If you think that's because of something inherent in the nature of the potential buyers of the time - on a Darwinian 'Natural Selection' level - then I'm sorry but I'm just going to have to laugh you off the page. Patent nonsense.

 

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Look at S30 history.  Most in NA region have seen them for years as a common car... 240, 260,280, fairlady, 432 whatever the name... it is a "Datsun Z Car" to the common folks. They were not that special to most people on this side of the pond. It is a Mustang/Corvette sports car world over here for the most part. 

However, where you are, they are very rare and relatively obscure to most. That and the fact most have to be imported to UK from Asia or NA increases the local cost and in turn value. Also in your region you have to factor in the high taxes and high price of things when normalized to a common currency. 

Here is a quick example. A new base Toyota beater is 25% more in UK when price normalized .....and comes with a smaller engine, the margins get even worse as you go up the line.  Couple this with higher insurance costs and higher road taxes then you can see that prices are higher for things there than here.  

 

  USA Canada Australia Great Britain Others
1970 16,215 1201 319 2 3

 

As Z owner in NA, I  appreciate the various iterations and design changes from 1969 to 1978 however I find very little distinctions between the lot that is worth a $200,000 premium.  Thus my agreement with the first post.

 

I can also understand why the 432 is more expensive/of more value where you are due to foreign exchange, higher cost of living, and regional differences.

 

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Hey guys, yes I've unbiasedly hidden a few posts in this thread.  Please keep in mind that any post should be on-topic and not intended to attack or cause a fight (trolling).  Please consider that I have a life and cannot police all topics and posts.  I only focus on the posts that are a violation of our ethics and conditions of use.  For instance, I cannot stop someone from being an arse, but, I can stop them from violating the rules.  I don't have preference for anyone on this site, but, I do want to make sure the overall subject matter remains on topic.  And, if you are typing something and think a keyboard and a monitor are enough to protect you from a punch in the nose, please don't post it.

Lastly, please don't take our site into the realm of zcar.com land.  Ad revenue might increase as more people jump into the fight, but, I really don't want our little place in history to be known as an unfriendly place.  This would devastate me because I've managed to keep this place going for over 20 years.

Thanks,

Mike

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On 9/15/2016 at 1:40 AM, HS30-H said:

Reassuring to see the forum dimwits being dimwits. We can't be far from an 'LS-it' meme...

The "what's all the fuss about" viewpoint is half philistinism and half luddite

Hey Mike, I very subtly suggested a short while ago that somebody keep their opinions about China to themselves and not troll the forum for xenophobia and I got an Abusive Behavior warning.  HS30 calls Blue and grannyknot "dimwits" directly and that's not abusive.  That's where the bias charge comes from.  You have subconscious favorites.  Dimwits is still there.  It's another name for stupid or dumb, in case it's not clear.

I think that HS30 gets on the forum just to be an arrogant a s s  (that's American for arse).  All of the bad in this thread started from his name-calling.  There's your problem.  Be consistent.

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1 hour ago, Blue said:

However, where you are, they are very rare and relatively obscure to most. That and the fact most have to be imported to UK from Asia or NA increases the local cost and in turn value. Also in your region you have to factor in the high taxes and high price of things when normalized to a common currency. 

  USA Canada Australia Great Britain Others
1970 16,215 1201 319 2 3

 

As Z owner in NA, I  appreciate the various iterations and design changes from 1969 to 1978 however I find very little distinctions between the lot that is worth a $200,000 premium.  Thus my agreement with the first post.

 

I can also understand why the 432 is more expensive/of more value where you are due to foreign exchange, higher cost of living, and regional differences.

 

Where I am? 

The original market - and still by a huge margin the main market - for the PS30 Fairlady Z432 was, and is, Japan. What relevance has my home market here in the UK with that? What a bizarre post.

I note too (hopefully others will not fall for it) that you are citing 1970 sales numbers for HLS30 and HS30 prefixed cars as some kind of reference. Reference for what exactly in the context of the 432? There are no Japanese market sales included in those numbers and therefore they are crock for the purposes of most useful discussion.

You seem to be running out of ideas and material. 

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