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Careless

Fastener "head stampings" or ID numbers/letters

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I'm just rifling through the 9 million bolts here with the 01/70 resto project.

 

I found a bag of these bolts, brand new (top right: 08120-8501E) that sandwhich the trans halves together.

 

97caff81b69cfea7b744a99b92883848.png

 

The ones I have pulled from the trans, and also some of the ones that I have discovered in the box-o-bolts have a head marking that says TR on one edge of the hex, and 7 on the opposite edge of the hex, and the washer is slightly thicker than the new ones.

 

On the new one, it has the italicized "7" that I have come to expect on many of the datsun bolts, as I've seen 7's and 9's embossed on the hex heads on most Nis/Dats. 

 

Now I know I'm splitting hairs here, but I have new bolts, so I might as well use them... But did the TR 7 marking ever show up on any datsun bolts? Is this an early Datsun thing? I would much rather use what came on the car, to be honest, since I'm getting them tumbled and replated at some point.

 

They are the exact same thread and length.

Edited by Careless

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Here's another conundrum. Exact same ordeal.

 

The 71 I have here as a "reference car" has the same bolts holding the valve cover down as the ones currently on the 01/70 engine (sprayed silver, ughh).

 

The Bolts that I have that are NOS and Part Number 01125-00151 which are a match are different and have the marking "7" (on the right).

 

 

UH5f7qZ.jpg

 

would you guys agree that using the originals and having them plated is prob a better way to go about it?
don't mind the huge mess of parts in the background.

Edited by Careless

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As far as I can tell the embossed 7 and 9 are there for quick bolt identification during assembly on the production line.  They have no meaning regarding bolt strength.  I ahve taken original fasteners, inspected them, ran them through a tap or die, media blasted, tumbled, and had them replated.  

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johnc from HybridZ?

 

My concern isn't really the strength, it is whether the bolt is the original one or not. There are a lot of small differences between the 70's models vs the later ones, I'm finding... If I can keep the small details 70's oriented, I'm sure the owner would appreciate it, as it will be more true-to-resto rather than rebuild.

 

I just hate seeing "DORMAN 5/16" on bolts that are in plain site. If it were in an inconspicuous location, it would bother me a little less.

 

Did the datsuns ever come with a "TR 7" bolt, though?

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I have seen two distinct valve cover bolt designs. Early have an indented hex bolt with the 7, with a split lock and a flat washer trapped (SEMS) to the bolt, The tip is distinctly pointed as well.

Later (sorry don't know the change over date) have no washers, but the bolt head has the flange, as you see in both. These bolts do have the indented head with the 7 as well. The tip is a self starting type, no threads for a couple of theads worth and tapered, but not pointy like the early ones.

I do have some flange headed bolts that have a solid top, that appear to the same length, no SEMS washers, but no guarentee these were valve cover bolts. Might be front cover bolts.

post-11371-0-49817300-1429805541_thumb.j

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that's odd... both the 01/70 and 71 I have here show the bolt head on the left of the photo that I took. the one on the left of the photo that you took, zKars, is the new style of bolt I have in the bags, and it is also the same style that is on the 73 that is here as well.

 

There are no distinct markings on the bolt on the left (70/71). It has a flat top, flange, and threads rolled to the tip.

The newer ones, and the ones on the 73 have scalloped head with the 7 marking, and a non-threaded tip for starting, as you mentioned zKars.

Edited by Careless

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The bolt with the flange head is a later style.  The bolt with no markings and separate washer is 'correct' for your car, Careless.  I like your idea of restoring the original hardware instead of replacing it.

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From Wick Humble's standard reference, 'How to Restore Your Datsun Z-Car'"

 

"On ISO fasteners, the grade is indicated by its number - 4, 5, 9 and so forth - on the bolt head.  But this doesn't mean that a bolt marked 5 is equivalent to SAE Grade 5.  Unfortunately, the ISO number indicates a torque capacity lower than the SAE number -- a negative safety margin if you mix them up.  For instance, the ISO Grade 7 is the equivalent to approximately an SAE Grade 5 -- for a 14mm bolt, Nissan's torque spec on this bolt is 56-76 lb-ft.  ISO Grade 9, the highest number I've found on any Z-car bolt, is torqued 80-108 lb-ft if it's a 14mm bolt.  At the other end of the spectrum, anything ISO Grade 4 -- as are many of the 10mm Phillips head bolts found on a Z -- is comparable to unmarked 'hardware-store' grade bolts.  |That means they could conceivably be snapped off with an overenthusiastic twist on a Phillips screwdriver."

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The bolt with the flange head is a later style.  The bolt with no markings and separate washer is 'correct' for your car, Careless.  I like your idea of restoring the original hardware instead of replacing it.

 

weird.... on the left, the bolt is a flat top, but integrated flange- taken off the 01/70 and the 71 i have too. the right is the new one. perhaps I have some other bolts kicking around. I'll end up plating both sets if i do, and use whatever comes back nicer. 

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From the current standards ISO markings are not like what's seen on the original Nissan fasteners. Also, the ISO TC-2 standards sub-committee did not publish their metric fastener standards until the mid 1970s so the OEM fasteners on the S30 we designed to JIC standards.

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Interesting discussion about the standards used. It's amazing the amount of knowledge you guys have about these items and their purpose/classification back in those times.

 

I originally intended this post to be right/wrong bolt "design" for each specific application/part, but it sure has taken a turn for the better.

 

I just received the 18lb media vibratory tumbler from eastwood co, so I will be cleaning and posting my findings for whatever bolts I can chuck in there and match to the parts I will be refinishing and replating. 

Could you imagine sandblasting 500+ fasteners? in a dimly lit blasting cabinet, no less! At least now I can flip a switch and walk away for 4 - 6 hours, and finish my day with tagging and wire wrapping items so that at the end of the week I can drop off a tub of bolts all wired and ready for refinishing.

 

so excited!  :LOL:

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I sandblasted and wire wheeled each and every part. I also tried a vibratory tumbler with just about every media and gave up, hope you have better luck than I did.

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I have tried fine corn cob and whiteblast which is crushed glass in my vibratory tumbler for 24 hours and the parts still weren't polished up. This is after the blast cabinet

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Are you guys using the tumbler units correctly? It needs to vibrate at a specific rate per minute in order to actually work. I got the 18lb tumbler here, and have read reviews from car resto guys that it's an excellent tool. I'm using the rust cutting media, as it leaves a finish that is smoother than sandblasting and not quite polished. I have the corn cob media as well as the speed clean solution.

 

It should be filled with 2/3 media and 1/3 parts. I also have a scale here. Hope it works, I'll post results. It's not a rinky-dink 5lb rock or brass casing polisher. It's the largest unit available for under 300 dollars.

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You need to tumble the parts twice for about 12 hours each time.  The first tumble is with an aggressive cleaning media and the second is with a polishing media.  And don't overfill as Carelss mentions above.  I used Eastwood green plastic for cleaning and rust removal and dri shine for polish.

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I just dumped a bunch of those small hose clamps in there. 10lbs of green pyramid media (eastwood co. 7lb + 2.5lb), about 5oz of water, and 2oz of speed clean... it's been on for maaaaaybe 45 minutes, if that... And the clamps are already done. There is about 2lbs worth of parts. No more than 3lb. There's a small wheel chock and one of the wiper or starter relay covers (I don't know what it is yet, tbh).

 

I dunno bout you guys, but that's pretty good to me for 45 mins!!! I'll post photos of how it comes out at aroun 2 or 3pm if I can send to my google drive.. (3 to 4 hours total vibe'n time)... If I come here for 3 days in a row and continue to work on the vehicle, I can do the entire rear, front, and brake line hardware sets done in that time and ready for the platers at the end of the week.

 

I doubt I'll be going with the dry-shine corn cob... From what I'm seeing, a lot of the NOS datsun parts that are sealed and packaged well are ALMOST like a sandblasted finish. It's almost as if the metal is clean, but the plating was done very dully. I think the green pyramid media might be where I end the process on my side before sending to the plater.

Edited by Careless

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I'm familiar with rock tumbling / polishing as my sister does a lot of that.  So I used Eastwood's green media in a tumbler rather than their vibrator.  Same sort of mix proportions.  All my stuff came out looking great.  Cleaned up the threads with a tap and die set; sent the stuff out to be plated.

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I think I still have to play with the mixture of water/speed clean. Right now it's a slurry. Sort of sandy. Not quite dry. but definitely not runny. It's thick enough to not be drained from the hose outlet on the side. However, It's still doing a great job. I just tossed the alternator tension bracket in there. It has more of that damned ford blue on there. Gonna see what it comes out like around 5pm. The rest of the stuff looks great. All the clamps are clean. I might run them through the dry shine... Not quite sure yet. 

 

I'm going to give eastwood a call to see what their recommendation is for the consistency of the mixture. Perhaps I have too much media in there as opposed to too much material- as is the most common mistake.

 

In the mean time, I had a boxing match with the oil pan, and managed to remove the timing cover without messing up anything. Headgasket is clean and straight. Pan needs a slight misting of black paint- but the previous paint had tons of runs. Not that I would ever look there, but if it's up on a hoist- definitely noticeable. All in all, I'm getting two jobs done at once!

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gotta head home now, but I had an hour to clean out the bowl and strain all the green pyramid media. Didn't add water this time because I didn't dry the media- just ran water through a strainer until it came out clear and dumped it into another container. Rinsed the bowl out and dried it good, then put it all back in after rinsing off the parts too. I think it was moist enough.

 

I put 2oz or so of Speed Clean. I think i loaded it with the right amount of "juice" this time. she sounds a little more "dry" and the parts are starting to come out reallllllll bright with the green pyramid media. these are gonna look fantastic when they're plated.

 

New Idea: Probably gonna buy a timer at some point so I can come in, set it up for 8 hours and let her rip long after I'm gone. For now I'll have someone shut'er down at 7pm ish.

 

Next up:

- Brake Line hardware

- Rear/Front Suspension hardware

- Engine hardware

 

will post pics Monday or Tuesday evening of the first batch of small hose clamps and such.

Edited by Careless

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Would be interested to see pics. I have a tumbler that is not quite that large that I run brass cases in normally. I may order some green pyramid media and try that...

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Update (Without pics).

 

I bought a 50lbs bag of triangle media (pyramid is harder to come by, but triangle is virtually the same). It was 5x cheaper than buying from any online store, but the quantity is way more for a minimum purchase. It's ok, it will be used in time.

 

The parts come out AMAZING after about 6 to 8 hours of use. I found that the Speed Clean solution works great. The media has to be visibly damp (in reference to colour) but not sopping wet. If you don't have it looking wet, it will occassionally dry out, and even if left overnight it will turn into a cement like clump of metal and media, which is hard to clean. The best course of action is to add water every 3 or 4 hours. Running a little low on speed clean, so I'm substituting with some sunlight dish soap. just a couple of squirts. maybe 2 table spoons or so, give or take. The media, oddly enough, HAS to be lubricated. If it's not lubricated with the speed clean solution or similar, it will glaze over and take forever to work. It will essentially tumble and polish itself. The damp environment for the media creates a waterfall effect. The dusty particulate sinks to the bottom, exposing new media surface that is rough, and as the parts are pushed through the dusty/sandy slurry at the base of the bowl, it gets further cleaned- while the media refreshes. This is how it was explained to me by the tumbler media supplier I went to, who was very well spoken and had taken the time to explain various finishes and media types to me- so I am passing this information on!

I found that 10-12lbs of media and 5-6 lbs of parts works best. It keeps the media level high, and allows a lot of media to "fall" onto the parts as they vibrate towards the center and climb back up the wall of the bowl.

 

The other thing I have noticed is that the bowl occassionally rotates at a slow pace depending on how tight the lid knob is. The issue I had with this is that even with a lock washer or with over-tightening, it will come loose. The worst part about that situation is that the bowl will eventually thrash around as the media gets more dry (ie- you didn't add water again, dumbass!), and as a result- it WILL widen the hole that goes through the center of the bowl. This is simply due to the bowl being loose, and the vibrating threaded rod in the center of the bowl not being tied to anything. The threads really bung up the plastic bowl. Luckily I caught it before it got bad! But I have some plastic bushings I can use to take up any slack now.

The perfect solution to what I think would be a common problem (since it's not in the operating manual) is quite simple! Just use a second threaded knob, disc washer, and rubber washer (my tumbler came with two sets), and fasten the bowl with one set first, and you can keep it open, or fasten the lid on AFTER the first knob is all the way down. The bowl should NOT move. If it does, the rubber feet will wear on the underside of the bowl, and this is not supposed to happen.

 

Overall, I've done about 15 lbs of items now, in 3 days. A lot of occassional "getting it right" type tweaking. But now that I know how it works, I am going to bring the tumbler home with me so that I can tumble the items while I sleep, and set alarms to wake up and check up on it in my garage.

 

It works great for small screws too, and it doesn't seem like the thread is marred or damaged, even on the hose clamp screws. The amount of hose clamps i'm plating would cost the same as the tumbler unit IF they could all be bought new, so I think it's worth it!

After tumbling, I wash the items in water, give them a quick rinse with brake cleaner, and then apply WD40 on them and put them in a plastic bin. Before I take them to get plated, I do the same as I did with the brake lines and fuel rail... wipe with WD40, then wipe it off with a clean rag. It prevents them from flash rusting, and has just the right amount of WD to not require extended time in the etching bath or produce poor plating results.

 

The corn cob media will not be used. It is tooooooo shiney, although I have not used it yet. The plastic/green media works great, is actually what is used for a "pre-plate" finish, and It looks as though it will match the datsun texture perfectly. I also kinda like the smell. hehe

 

So far, it looks like the unit was a good purchase, and in the mean time I've taped the engine off, tore down two alternators, drove around to numerous places to get items processed or discuss pricing and scheduling, and have done a lot more research in regards to parts and whatnot.

Edited by Careless

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As far as I can tell the embossed 7 and 9 are there for quick bolt identification during assembly on the production line.  They have no meaning regarding bolt strength.  I ahve taken original fasteners, inspected them, ran them through a tap or die, media blasted, tumbled, and had them replated.  

 

 

From Wick Humble's standard reference, 'How to Restore Your Datsun Z-Car'"

 

"On ISO fasteners, the grade is indicated by its number - 4, 5, 9 and so forth - on the bolt head.  But this doesn't mean that a bolt marked 5 is equivalent to SAE Grade 5.  Unfortunately, the ISO number indicates a torque capacity lower than the SAE number -- a negative safety margin if you mix them up.  For instance, the ISO Grade 7 is the equivalent to approximately an SAE Grade 5 -- for a 14mm bolt, Nissan's torque spec on this bolt is 56-76 lb-ft.  ISO Grade 9, the highest number I've found on any Z-car bolt, is torqued 80-108 lb-ft if it's a 14mm bolt.  At the other end of the spectrum, anything ISO Grade 4 -- as are many of the 10mm Phillips head bolts found on a Z -- is comparable to unmarked 'hardware-store' grade bolts.  |That means they could conceivably be snapped off with an overenthusiastic twist on a Phillips screwdriver."

 

I found the following data to help clarify the bolt head marking subject:

 

post-7818-0-72340900-1432230405_thumb.jp

 

This document can be found here, thanks Chas. :)

http://www.classiczcars.com/topic/49520-bolt-sizes/

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