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Inf

'72 240z Underbody pics

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    The car looked great when it got here, supposedly "rust free" and "dent free" and "running great," but this was not the case.

    I'm a little short on time, so I cant give a full explanation of all the things I found wrong with it, but I will post more when I get home later tonight. One of the things that concerned me the most was the deformation of the drivers side frame rail, so I am attaching that picture right now. What do you guys think about it? I havent bought it yet, and after seeing the condition of certain areas and the engine putting out blue smoke under load, I am inclined to send it back to california. The owner, one "Ray Toms" or "Jerold C. Rule" (I can't tell who I am dealing with here, because the Ray Toms character claims to be the owner but said after the transaction had begun that the title was in the name of Jerold C. Rule)

    Ray Toms (I think) has been giving me lots of garbage. The engine only had about 3 quarts of oil in it, extremely black when we took it out, and he claimed that he changed it less than 1000 miles back, he flat out lied about the condition of the car, basically making it out to be a near show quality car (it is FAR from it).

    I bought this over ebay and had it shipped here, but I am using the securepay option, so I have the right to reject the merchandise by tommorow and then ship it back at my own expense. Given the discovery of rust in various places (camoflagued by black spray paint) I am going to send it back. I just want to post here to A) get an idea of what happened to this car, and B) make sure that NONE of you get suckered by this guy. He is a congenital liar, and I recommend that none of you do business with him when he makes an attempt to sell it again later.

    Thanks,

    Andrew

    post-3312-14150792401842_thumb.jpg

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    Someone has used the floorpan rail as jack-point withtheir hydraulic floorjack. Should have used the front cross-member as a jack point, but even with that, if you/he/anyone places their jackstands on these rails they will deform somewhat. I place my jackstands on the rails up forward near where the tension/compression rods are located. It appears to be a much stronger location.

    If you don't mind, can you post a link to the auction page so we can see pictures of the entire car. What was the sellers eBay name?

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    The floor looks pretty darn good to me. You will find the same type of damage on probably at least 85% of the Z's that have ever been into a garage for an oil change or had an owner that liked to do it themselves.

    It's not critical unless there has been rust in the rail and the rail has collapsed, which this one obviously doesn't have that problem.

    As far as the title goes, he probably bought the car and never changed the title over into his name. He might have only bought the car to re-sell for a profit. I've got a buddy who bought a car from me, and 6 years later the title was still in my name when he scrapped it.

    Unless there is a lot of rust somewhere else, this car does look really good underneath unless you aren't showing the worst areas......:ermm:

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    It suddenly occured to me while driving out to dinner (and passing a large car carrying semi like mine was delivered on) that the damage I had been so worried about was actually the result of the shipping company chaining it down improperly!

    By the time I went to the parking lot to meet the truck, they had already released it from the restraints. I will attach pictures, I am not sure what I should do about this should I choose to keep it. I feel that it is a decent car in many ways, but has several flaws that the owner lied to me about. I have been thinking about it intensely all day, and am beginning to think "maybe I wont find one with such a clean body for a LONG while." I was a little too quick to judge I think, mainly because I expected a little bit too much out of a 31 year old car. This being my first classic car I wasn't quite sure what to expect. I will post some other pics as well.

    The previous owner had a rather sloppy paint job (overspray onto gaskets, some fixtures, etc) applied to it 4 months before. I did a bondo check with a magnet and couldnt really find any spots that were not ferrous. The spare tire well area seemed to be in good condition, no real rust that I could detect. He basically told me that he had the "underbody washed" and then "sprayed it down with black spray paint" as opposed to doing any sort of real rust treatment and undercoating because he said he does not need it in california, but I am worried that he just did it to cover up a rust problem.

    I am posting some attached images, and some of the larger high resolution ones to show certain areas of concern to a seperate webserver.

    http://www.wildshot.net/DSC03280.JPG (2560x1920 2.1mb) Pic of cracking on one of the sparse patches of undercoating (subsequently sprayed over with spray paint) that is beginning to crack, and I believe there is rust underneath it, but to what extent I could not tell without just stripping it all off. This particular area is on the drivers side floor pan.

    http://www.wildshot.net/DSC03266.JPG (2560x1920 2.1mb) Overall pic of the underside of the front section. You can see some of the damage to the right hole at the center of the brace that is southeast of the oil pain in the picture, as well as the appearance of reddish-brown from underneath the spray paint he applied. I did not observe it at the time, but the camera flash made it visible in the photos. The same is true of the photo of the floor pan area

    Any advice you guys may have would be much appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Andrew

    edit : fixed a typo

    post-3312-14150792402413_thumb.jpg

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    this is a closeup. the above attached damage pics were the result of the shipping company improperly restraining the vehicle.

    post-3312-14150792402988_thumb.jpg

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    I think I should also note that the current color and original color are both orange, so unless they applied the same paint to the underside of the car, I guess I should assume that the orange/reddish areas are rust?

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    Originally posted by Inf

    this is a closeup. the above attached damage pics were the result of the shipping company improperly restraining the vehicle.

    If you decide to keep the car, I'd be filing a claim for damage in shipment with the carrier. That rear frame damage looks nasty, though it probably doesn't affect safety or strength of the unibody. It should not have happened and they should PAY for their mistake.

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    I'd say you should have a talk with the shipping company and show them the damage. Looks like the dummy used an ordinary chain hook in the holes on the rails instead of the T hook that may or may not have prevented the damage.

    With a little work with a hammer, you should be able to repair it to the point it will be almost invisble.

    They ought to know better when chaining down a car that was built out of too thin metal and expecting it to hold up after all these years of rust and use....:stupid:

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    Originally posted by Inf

    I think I should also note that the current color and original color are both orange, so unless they applied the same paint to the underside of the car, I guess I should assume that the orange/reddish areas are rust?

    Don't assume anything, INSPECT IT AGAIN, CAREFULLY!

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    dont assume anything!! remember the saying assuming makes an arse out of u and me

    look over the entire car carefully and inpect it with a fine tooth comb.

    to me it looks like all the damage shown is from the shippers inept work with tieing the car down and i would make a claim and have them pay

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    Please do us all a favor and post the name of the transport Co. so nobody else gets burned.

    Phred

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    I'm going to chime in with a completely different viewpoint.

    How much did you agree to pay for the car? $1-3 thousand? Not a bad amount for what we've been able to see. (just a few pictures of some damage underneath, none of which are fatal.)

    How does the interior look like? Is it clean, complete and generally without major problems? Or is it trashed needing total replacement before you can drive it?

    What about the exterior? Complete, original paint job? or a good quality repaint?

    At the risk of offending you, I think you have a bad case of Buyer's Remorse and are being extremely hyper-critical, LOOKING for a justification to refuse the car and get out of the deal.

    The cracked undercoating on the floor pan, big deal. Scrape it off, wire brush it, and reapply. That it is dried out, cracking and showing some rust beneath it is not only typical, it is in reality quite minor. What did you expect of 30+ year old tar based undercoating? If the undercoating were brand new, sticky and still gooey, THEN I'd be seriously worried that it had been applied to intentionally hide problems. Black paint sprayed in the wheel wells and on the underside of the car? That's such an old trick at used car lots as to make any body man laugh. A simple pressure wash gets rid of it and reveals what's underneath.

    The pulled metal where they tied it down, that one I would get the shipping company to pay for. It's not more than a hundred or so. Any qualified sheet metal worker could repair that in fifteen minutes.

    The crushed frame rail? I don't see NEW scrapes on it, I see as 2MZ said, damage from a floor jack, or a garage lift. If it bothers you that much, it can be replaced. But it doesn't look as though it has collapsed and therefore compromised integrity.

    The red dust you see everywhere, could it be plain old dirt? There are LOTS of areas in California where they have RED dirt! Red Dirt = Red Dust.

    Those look like the original tires, could this car have sat in a barn for a number of years? If so, almost ALL of the problems you've mentioned would definitely be attributable to not having been "woken" up or refreshed properly.

    But in all of this, you've not given pictures of the exterior, interior, general condition of the car. Let's take a look at the rest of the vehicle, AND post how much you agreed to pay. That may be the biggest indicator of all.

    As far as the transport company, did you shop for the "lowest" bidder? Or did you find a reputable transport company with credentials to match?

    Sorry if this offends anyone, but I've seen worse, and from the very limited pictures we've seen, this is NOT a basket case of a car.

    Enrique Scanlon

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    First off, even experienced body men can be fooled by the magnet check. A really THIN coating of bondo won't appreciably change the pull of the magnet towards the base metal. It takes a really THICK application of Bondo before you can easily detect it with a magnet, and then you have to have experience with it. The magnet test is best when detecting fibreglass replacement panels.

    And before everyone chimes in that this is a "sure fire" way, there are body fillers out there that have METAL powder in them specifically for THIS purpose.

    And the argument that bondo is ~BAD~ won't wash, just about EVERY car manufacturer uses some sort of plastic body filler to hide seams on the exterior of the car, small dents in the assembly line, or even in the transport process.

    I think that there may only be a handful of manufacturer's out there that still use lead. Rolls Royce, Bentley, maybe Aston Martin, Ferrari and Lamborghini, might still use lead, but I seriously doubt that your average Joe Schmoe body shop in California is using it. Unfortunately, it is a dying art.

    Sorry to come off so strong, but just had to put in my 2¢.

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    rust is impossible to completely remove and prevent. I work with rust daily. When I see a car listed as rust free, I take it to mean no damage from rust. Surface rust is not damage. Rust is nature's own protection; yes protection. Given the opportunity to dry out, the surface rust acts as a barrier. It is when constant moisture is applied to an area that more serious rust develops. I would consider an old car with solid surface rust to be a very good car. The surface rust did it's job. Your shipping company broke some undercoating off. This may be a good thing. If there is rust underneath, then there are places that the moisture can get in. This would not allow the area to totally dry out; thus more serious rust can develop. However, I always ask people, will you be driving this as a primary car? In snow and rain? Salt? A car driven on sunny days will last forever, even if some problems exist. I think the torn frame rail is unfortunate and should be paid for. It will be an easy fix for a body tech.

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    It looks damn good for a 72. Unless you paid $9K for a "showroom car", it looks just fine to me. No way will a 30 year old Z have zero rust so I'm not sure what the whining is about. Heck, even the so called "damage" from shipping aint no big thing UNLESS you paid top dollar for this car....

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    I think my expectations were a little too high, this being a 30 year old car and also my first experience with a car this old. I absolutely love the car, and am keeping it. I plan on fixing a lot of the things I initially found wrong with it, even though I do not think I got a very good deal since the guy selling it to me flat out lied about several things to artificially drive up the price. I posted a longer related post in the open discussion forum.

    Andrew

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