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FastWoman

Efficiency potential of the L28 (MegaSquirt)

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It would be more modern (good thing), but that doesn't mean it will look it. The ECU will go somewhere hidden, perhaps in the location of the current ECU (you can probably even make it look like a stock ECU! I think TonyD has done some sneaky stuff like that). You'll have to integrate a couple of sensors but those can be made pretty inconspicuous as well. No need for that bulky flow-restriction called the AFM!

I completely understand the allure of old tech, I have triple Webers and enjoy understanding and working on them. The sound is awesome and the look on people's faces is even better!

Still, the draw to go ITBs, standalone ECU and adjustable coil-overs is almost too great to resist!

Edited by LeonV
Wording

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MS can run an AFM. At least I know MSII can. I have it turned off in my tune since I am using the MAP sensor built into the brain box. MS can run better and probably more efficient than the factory system...having said that, you will NEVER be done tweaking the tune, if you are like me. Seems like every little bump or burp I hear, I whip out the laptop and tune some more. It never ends. Sometimes I wish I had the stock system back and just drove it. It can be made to look totally stealthy installed in the car. You could probably use the factory EFI harness for most of the install if you wished to. I mounted my box under the drivers seat but it will mount in the stock location. Heck, it would probably fit into the original ECU case. My boost gauge is double taped on top center of the column clamshell. An AFR gauge could go there nicely as well.

post-4964-14150815618695_thumb.jpg

Edited by cygnusx1

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Isn't tweeking part of the fun! Can't do that with the stock stuff.

Sarah, you might venture on to the DIY Tune site and and look at the FAQs they have. The site is geared for first timers to the the stand alone world and is pretty user friendly. It was a matter of getting used to the terminology in the EFI world and it's components.

MS can run an AFM. At least I know MSII can. I have it turned off in my tune since I am using the MAP sensor built into the brain box. MS can run better and probably more efficient than the factory system...having said that, you will NEVER be done tweaking the tune, if you are like me. Seems like every little bump or burp I hear, I whip out the laptop and tune some more. It never ends. Sometimes I wish I had the stock system back and just drove it. It can be made to look totally stealthy installed in the car. You could probably use the factory EFI harness for most of the install if you wished to. I mounted my box under the drivers seat but it will mount in the stock location. Heck, it would probably fit into the original ECU case. My boost gauge is double taped on top center of the column clamshell. An AFR gauge could go there nicely as well.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]46752[/ATTACH]

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Thanks, guys! Dave, if MSII can be used with the cursed AFM, I'm definitely interested! I'll check out the FAQ, Steve.

Oh, and I was thinking about the distributor. I don't really need a CAS except for sequential injection, which y'all say isn't a big deal anyway. Otherwise I presume the distributor's reluctor signal could be used trigger the MS, which would handle the spark advance and drive the coil. I would need to disable the vacuum (and also mechanical?) advance. Do I have that right?

Anyway I'll check out the FAQ. This all sounds much more do-able now. The only part of my EFI that I really WANT to replace is the ECU, as I don't really care about the originality of some box hiding under the kick panel.

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MSII can work with a stock dizzy. It has a coil driver built into the board that you can use. I am NOT an electronics guy so I can't give you too much more than that, but I know it has those capabilities and more. DIY Autotune is a great place. Also check out MSEFI.com. Don't be afraid to give DIY a call or an email. They are very helpful.

PS, I am sure you can use the vacuum advance OR block the mechanical functions and use the onboard MAP sensor to build a timing advance map based on RPM vs vacuum. The AFM becomes a restriction, but if you like it, you can keep it and use it. The MS system is totally flexible and the software is all open source so you can find a firmware version with the features you like and use it...or write your own.

Go download the tuning software from DIY and play with it offline.

Edited by cygnusx1

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Sarah,the stock system will NEVER come close to a"O2 sensor driven system" in terms of economy and all other aspects,for that matter.

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Sounds like you're talking yourself into a second rate pile of trouble there.

Forget the factory AFM, it's ancient c**p. If you really want AFM (and it does have some advantages) then think about disguising something from a late 90's BMW or Porsche. They did at least work.

The comments re sequential injection obviously come from sources who have yet to use it. It does make a significant difference, particularly to idle and low throttle angles like light foot cruise. The engine is both smoother and more economical with sequential. Funny that OEM has all gone that way.

The stock distributor based electronic ignition is likewise outdated technology. A good hot spark around 60mA at 50kV is easily achievable with MS3/MS3X driving the coils, that will fire an unbelievably lean mixture just like a modern car does.

A feature in MS2extra and MS3 that few seem to use is fuel cut on over-run. Why have the injectors dumping fuel in when no power is required? Don't let anyone tell you the engine won't respond quickly when you get back on it 'cause it will if the rest of the tune is right (just like any very late model does!!).

You need engine position sensing but why cripple that by using a known inaccurate source like the distributor?

You don't need 440cc injectors unless you are planning on a 400hp+ engine. That sort of size in a road car will just make it hard to get good control at idle because the pulse width is so small with a relatively small engine capacity. Good for bragging rights though!

The 250cc turbo injectors will supply a 280hp NA just fine.

You do need a larger throttle body, 60mm works fine for road use, 65mm is nicer when you stand on it. Naturally, you might as well not waste the money or effort to go to a larger throttle body if you keep the restrictive AFM.

Do your research, spend some time looking for sites that give solid data on stuff like injector sizing etc.

It doesn't have to be exotic, it doesn't even have to look very non-standard, but it sure will work really well.

Art

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Merely for curiousity's sake, what would be the cost of a complete 'properly' set up MS system with crank trigger ignition, coil packs, the appropriate injectors, etc.?

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1)The comments re sequential injection obviously come from sources who have yet to use it.2) It does make a significant difference, particularly to idle and low throttle angles like light foot cruise. The engine is both smoother and more economical with sequential.3) Funny that OEM has all gone that way.

Art

1)Wrong.

2)Correct.But not without serious engineering to retro fit.ANd the benefits gained do NOT warrant the expense.

3)Last i checked,L-motors are 37+ years old.

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Lots of good info in this thread. I happen to make somewhere North of 350 crank hp so I need 440cc injectors. Stock injectors will work with MS just fine. MS2 is batch injection, there are two banks. They don't need to both fire at the same time. You can break up the banks and alternate them. I do. Just do it based on the firing order. It's not sequential but it works with almost zero practical pitfalls compared to sequential. I have zero issues idling with 440cc injectors. Although it might be better and snappier off idle with smaller ones. MS hardware can run from about $300 to about $1000 depending on how much DIY you do, and what bells and whistles you want to add. A decent wideband O2 system will run you around $200. It is an absolute must have. You can solder the entire thing from ziplock baggies of electronic parts if you want to save some cash. I bought the finished brain, the terminated cable, an LC1 wideband system, and a few temp senders. I think it was around $500 or so. I fabricated my own power and relay board.

Edited by cygnusx1

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2)ANd the benefits gained do NOT warrant the expense.

3)Last i checked,L-motors are 37+ years old.

2) Purely your opinion. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all, you know.

3) Really. Why bother upgrading at all. They are like, so old.

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2) 1)Purely your opinion. 2)Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all, you know.

3)3) Really. Why bother upgrading at all. They are like, so old.

1)True.However,my "opinion" also happens to be fact.

2)We are not talking about aesthetics-we are talking about function.

3)Try reading the topic title.

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Oh I forgot to add the cost of the ford EDIS-6 ignition can be around $100 or less. I mounted the DIY Autotune trigger wheel to my stock crank pulley and fabbbed up a small bracket to hold the magnet. This thread is about the efficiency potential of the L. Without changing the fuel and spark system to a flexible system, you will not be able to "push" a given motor to its full potential in power and/or efficiency.

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Oh I forgot to add the cost of the ford EDIS-6 ignition can be around $100 or less. I mounted the DIY Autotune trigger wheel to my stock crank pulley and fabbbed up a small bracket to hold the magnet. This thread is about the efficiency potential of the L. Without changing the fuel and spark system to a flexible system, you will not be able to "push" a given motor to its full potential in power and/or efficiency.

The Ford EDIS-6 ia good way of reducing the cost.And the system works well.A lot of FI conversions use it.

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Dave, what would be your expectation for the hp and mileage improvement on a N/A, stock (completely original), original compression ratio '78 engine with MS fuel control, ordinary injectors, and EDIS ignition? As I've said, my preference is to keep the old hardware, just because there's something cool about it, but if the improvements would be great enough, I could be lured to the dark side. ;)

And Art, are you saying that I can achieve 280 hp with MSII, stock injectors, and normal aspiration, just by canning the AFM and using the larger throttle body? If so, that's darned impressive!

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I'd expect at least 30mpg on highway trips, given that the tune is done well.

And no, you will not gain anywhere near 100hp from removing the AFM and installing a larger throttle body, but that's not what Art was getting at. That much power from an NA L-gata will take an engine build, but MS has the power to support all sorts of engines, and therein lies its beauty.

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1)True.However,my "opinion" also happens to be fact.

2)We are not talking about aesthetics-we are talking about function.

3)Try reading the topic title.

You said...

"2)Correct.But not without serious engineering to retro fit.ANd the benefits gained do NOT warrant the expense."

You admit there are benefits then state they aren't worth the expense. How can you possibly know how much those benefits are worth to another person? Therefore your statement is not fact as you can only speak for yourself. It may be fact that YOU don't think it warrants the expense but that isn't what you said.

When you quote me don't add edits to my quote. You should really know better than that.

The beauty comment was a commentary on the value of the benefits of sequential. Some might find it to have a much greater worth than you. Thus "eye of the beholder". Might have been a little subtle for you.

What does the age of the L series have to do with anything? It shouldn't be upgraded to sequential because it's old? I was obviously, at least to most, being sarcastic.

Steve

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You said...

"2)Correct.But not without serious engineering to retro fit.ANd the benefits gained do NOT warrant the expense."

1)You admit there are benefits then state they aren't worth the expense. How can you possibly know how much those benefits are worth to another person? 2)Therefore your statement is not fact as you can only speak for yourself. It may be fact that YOU don't think it warrants the expense but that isn't what you said.

3)When you quote me don't add edits to my quote. You should really know better than that.

4)The beauty comment was a commentary on the value of the benefits of sequential. Some might find it to have a much greater worth than you. Thus "eye of the beholder".5) Might have been a little subtle for you.

6)What does the age of the L series have to do with anything? It shouldn't be upgraded to sequential because it's old? I was obviously, at least to most, being sarcastic.

Steve

1)Because i've been wrenching for 40+ years.And retro fitting sequential to an L-motor is NOT a good return on investment.Bang-for-the-buck for some people

2)No,my statement is fact.

3)I didn't edit your quote.

4)Again,EXTREMELY limited and expensive value.

5)Nothing is too subtle for.However,your comprehension has an issue.

6)I didn't reference age as an issue.YOU made a smart arse comment about it.

Edited by Z train

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1)Because i've been wrenching for 40+ years.And retro fitting sequential to an L-motor is NOT a good return on investment.Bang-for-the-buck for some people

2)No,my statement is fact.

3)I didn't edit your quote.

4)Again,EXTREMELY limited and expensive value.

5)Nothing is too subtle for.However,your comprehension has an issue.

6)I didn't reference age as an issue.YOU made a smart arse comment about it.

2) You must not know what a fact is as (1) clearly states that some might believe the bang for the buck worth it. A fact is always true. Not just when you say it is.

3) One of these things is not like the other. What's with the extra numbers? Did they just magically appear? Or did you get confused and start typing in the quote.:finger:

post-14809-14150815633953_thumb.jpg

4) And clearly not your place to decide if one feels the expense, however much, is warranted.

5) I guess after editing my post you are the one who could no longer comprehend it's meaning. Again, maybe a little confused.

6) So your statement "3)Last i checked,L-motors are 37+ years old. " had nothing to do with age? WOW.

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2) You must not know what a fact is as (1) clearly states that some might believe the bang for the buck worth it. A fact is always true. Not just when you say it is.

3) One of these things is not like the other. What's with the extra numbers? Did they just magically appear? Or did you get confused and start typing in the quote.:finger:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]46796[/ATTACH]

4) And clearly not your place to decide if one feels the expense, however much, is warranted.

5) I guess after editing my post you are the one who could no longer comprehend it's meaning. Again, maybe a little confused.

6) So your statement "3)Last i checked,L-motors are 37+ years old. " had nothing to do with age? WOW.

Are you suggesting that i am the only one of this opinion(sequential FI)?

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Are you suggesting that i am the only one of this opinion(sequential FI)?

Not at all. Just that your, and maybe many others, opinion about whether or not something is "worth it" do not a fact make.

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Everyone will have differences of opinion. But this is bringing an argument between two differences of opinion and taking away from the thread. Fast woman is smart enough to go the best route for her with all the info already given out.

Maybe take it to PM's so this thread can get cleaned up?

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Megasquirt tuning is really fun. You don't get that with the factory EFI. Worth it or not. ;-)

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1)Wrong.

2)Correct.But not without serious engineering to retro fit.ANd the benefits gained do NOT warrant the expense.

3)Last i checked,L-motors are 37+ years old.

Re 2) what serious engineering to "retro fit"? The injectors are exactly the same parts as used in a non sequential system, the difference is entirely in the ECU and wiring. Any other suggestion is leading interested people astray.

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Dave, what would be your expectation for the hp and mileage improvement on a N/A, stock (completely original), original compression ratio '78 engine with MS fuel control, ordinary injectors, and EDIS ignition? As I've said, my preference is to keep the old hardware, just because there's something cool about it, but if the improvements would be great enough, I could be lured to the dark side. ;)

And Art, are you saying that I can achieve 280 hp with MSII, stock injectors, and normal aspiration, just by canning the AFM and using the larger throttle body? If so, that's darned impressive!

Umm, you might find an extra 15hp or so! Let's face it, the low compression, restrictive exhaust etc will all limit the power capability.

Realistically, an engine build is very much part of the equation.

Honestly, I'd consider MS3/MS3X worthwhile on even a stock engine but wouldn't expect much gain in power if the 280z injection is used without some mods. Economy would benefit some but nothing like it could with high compression etc (and lot's of cam doesn't help there).

Incidentally, the option to use sequential injection becomes more significant when the engine is N/A and has a lot of cam.

I ignored that, just figured the real loping idle was OK until Holden Special Vehicles Co brought out their variant of one of the LS V8's using sequential. Hmmm, decent idle yet this thing cranks out 420hp net from 5.8 litres???

Took some time getting everything else right and the L28+ still doesn't purr like a kitten but it sure is better.

Even more so on the L29+ with ITBs and stupid cam profile.

Oh yeah, Dave's last post is absolutely spot on!!

Edited by aarc240

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