ZDDP? and the use in older Z engines

[doradox]

Poindexter,

Thank you for bringing this up. Racing products are for racing. They are designed for racing not street use. They aren't "better" because they are for racing. They are designed to meet specific racing requirements and to be better for racing engines as the article points out.

Steve

[doradox]

Here's a link busting the ZDDP myth.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1049812

Some interesting counterpoints too.

Steve

Edited September 5, 2008 by doradox

[Poindexter]

Here's a link busting the ZDDP myth.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1049812

Some interesting counterpoints too.

Steve

Bust shmust :cheeky:...I would definitely suggest that you read the links in the cam wear thread from hybridz. It has links to that same article you posted about, many other empirical bits of knowledge, as well as several other very informative links. And the comments regarding the proper use of ZDDP in engine oils from one of the largest and most experienced cam makers in the world- the current head of Iskenderian are very telling.

Depending on your driving style, the need for the extra protection offered by ZDDP may never come up..depending on the overall maintenance of your Z- over it's whole life too, it might never have any bearing- pun intended .

As my Z came from a Nissan exec in California, who was scrupulous in the upkeep, but drove briskly I have been told, and I also kept up the rigorous maintenance, but I drive with a very heavy foot, shifting well up into the power band, heel and toeing too, keeping the revs in the optimal place for the upcoming conditions, I need all of the protection I can get. So it may never bite you in the parts- it might even be the luck of the draw almost as much as upkeep and driving style.

Everything I've read says that the proper ration of ZDDP is crucial for these engines- not lower or too much higher either. Again, the hybridz thread contains almost every answer I needed to make an informed decision IMHO. It certainly solidified my decision to use one of the supplemental ZDDP additives- wither the GM or the one from the site, to bolster the concentration of whatever oil I use to the optimal level. I definitely do not want to worry about that. Last but not least, it certainly can't hurt!

Edited September 5, 2008 by Poindexter

[doradox]

One guy lunches a cam in 1200 miles and a lot of others who have "heard" about problems. People have been wiping cams since the very first cam was made. I've put over 100,000 miles on my 240SX in the last 4 years since the "phase out" of ZDDP and It sounds like I run it like you run your Z. with 225,000 total and still going strong I'm not worried. My Z will never see more than a few thousand a year.

Cam makers aren't going to open themselves up to any libility so they tell you to use an additive. It doesn't cost them a dime to do so. CYA. Didn't use the additive, sorry, can't warranty that. It's a great out. Probably saves them even in cases where their product was at fault.

If it makes you sleep better at night then fine. I'm a little superstitious about some of the things I do car maintenance wise too.

Steve

[Poindexter]

One guy lunches a cam in 1200 miles and a lot of others who have "heard" about problems. People have been wiping cams since the very first cam was made. I've put over 100,000 miles on my 240SX in the last 4 years since the "phase out" of ZDDP and It sounds like I run it like you run your Z. with 225,000 total and still going strong I'm not worried. My Z will never see more than a few thousand a year.

Cam makers aren't going to open themselves up to any libility so they tell you to use an additive. It doesn't cost them a dime to do so. CYA. Didn't use the additive, sorry, can't warranty that. It's a great out. Probably saves them even in cases where their product was at fault.

If it makes you sleep better at night then fine. I'm a little superstitious about some of the things I do car maintenance wise too.

Steve

Superstition sums it up quite nicely, actually. I do know that the oils "back then" (almost 40 years!- yikes!) had much higher levels of the stuff, but were also not as technologically advanced as today's lubes- and neither was the metallurgy, so who knows what gives for sure? I know it can't hurt, and I intend on keeping the appropriate levels, and so I'd just as soon not upset the apple cart. You are quite right that many more observations are needed to come to any absolute conclusion.

I never actually "track race" my Z, although I'm sure how I drive is considered "hard driving", so I'll take it where I can get it. I change the oil at least before every season when it's running, whether I drive 1,000 or 2,000 miles, and never go more than 2,000 miles. An extra $25 or so is cheap insurance too.

It never hurts to keep up with the latest "theory" going around- although this one does seem to have at least some basis in fact. All of this is moot, of course, if you don't remove the drain plug on odd numbered days, while jumping on your right foot to Motown tunes though...

[doradox]

I understand that some of us have cars that are our "baby" and value an all original low mileage engine and such. I can see their passion and concern. I'm not one of those but am glad there are others who are. I agree that that it can't really hurt. I can only hope I'm not wrong. But after all this discussion next time I walk past the oils and additives at AutoZone I'll be tempted to grab some secret sauce. What the heck.

Steve

[Carl Beck]

I will admit that I run Mobil 1 in all my other vehicles with great results. If it wasn't for the ZDDP issue, it'd be in the Datsun as well.

Hi Arne:

Just FYI - If you check the Mobil 1 site - you will find that they have certain types and weights of Moble 1 that do contain the necessary ZDDP additives...

Carl B.

[doradox]

Here’s a question. If an oil claims to exceed API services SM/SL, CF, ILSAC GF-4, ACEA A1/A5 services AND ALL preceding API and ILSAC gasoline categories then is it acceptable?

Is it performance standards we’re worried about or is it the amount of some ingredient that may or may not be being used in said oil?

Steve

[Poindexter]

I chose the Mobil1 High Mileage 10w-30 for their additives then adding zinc as required. Does anybody know how to compare 1000ppm to percent? Doesn't that work out to .001%?? And isn't the optimum level higher- like .0018? I'm trying to find that figure again- it's daunting to find trustworthy figures- assuming one buys into the ZDDP concept- which at this point I do.

Here's another comment from the zddplus website, which I am using as an untested source for forming the basis for some of my questions. In other words I'm vetting their results.

PS- I think the "problem" is, that over 40+ years, as the engine and exhaust technology has vastly changed, so has the technology to study the effects of oils, and in fact so have the methods of how they produce them to such precision. Then there is the advance in metallurgy to be considered too. I can't imagine how current oils can possibly be best for our older engines- much like how the earlier dry-cells- those lunch-boxed sized mothers- which I remember using 40+ years ago when I was building radios and stuff with my Dad- no longer fit anything made today. A car battery-sized battery of then is blown away by the small Lithium ion cells of today- in every way, except weight!

QUOTE-Directly measuring the amount of ZDDP in an additive is extremely difficult due to the mixture of different alcohols used in its manufacture, and the resulting range of atomic weights of the ZDDP molecules. The most common way to indirectly measure the ZDDP content is to use one of several ASTM test methods to measure the phosphorus and zinc content. Zinc can often be added to oils as an acid neutralizing agent, so zinc is not a reliable indicator of ZDDP. Since phosphorus is found in oils predominantly in the form of ZDDP, we use it as the measurement criteria a phosphorus test result as an indicator, the correct way to state ZDDP level is to state an amount of ZDDP that results in a certain phosphorus level. Phosphorus is also the element identified as most potentially compromising to the catalytic converter, so there is a maximum 800 ppm or 0.08% phosphorus level specified in the SM oil classification. SF oil was in common use back in the time of older high-performance cars with flat tappets and higher than current valve-spring pressures. The best heavy-duty oils of that time contained a level of ZDDP which resulted in a phosphorus level measured in the range of 1200 to 1600 ppm. Recent testing of modern SM oils reveals that many contain around 600 ppm of phosphorus. END

Edited September 7, 2008 by Poindexter

[doradox]

You are correct that 1000 ppm is .001% As far as information about ZDDP I think those who sell it might be a little more inclined to cast FUD, fear, uncertainty, and doubt, with the hope you buy their product. I've had trouble finding facts from neutral sources. If there is such a thing. But one thing that I've seen explicitly stated is that oil X exceeds all previous API standards. A particular standard, such as API SF, strictly defines the test procedure and the acceptable results. It doesn't change with changing technology. Why would it? It still applies to the cars built with the technology of the time the standard was in effect. The newer standards use updated procedures in keeping with the current standard of technology.

Does anyone use lead additive in their gas? I remember the FUD about that BS when we made the switch to all unleaded gas. It was all over the place. The end of every old car on the road. My first 240Z, bought with about 60,000 miles on it, drank only unleaded for almost 100,000 more miles before I sold it. Never had a lick of trouble with the engine.

Steve

[Poindexter]

You are correct that 1000 ppm is .001% As far as information about ZDDP I think those who sell it might be a little more inclined to cast FUD, fear, uncertainty, and doubt, with the hope you buy their product. I've had trouble finding facts from neutral sources. If there is such a thing. But one thing that I've seen explicitly stated is that oil X exceeds all previous API standards. A particular standard, such as API SF, strictly defines the test procedure and the acceptable results. It doesn't change with changing technology. Why would it? It still applies to the cars built with the technology of the time the standard was in effect. The newer standards use updated procedures in keeping with the current standard of technology.

Does anyone use lead additive in their gas? I remember the FUD about that BS when we made the switch to all unleaded gas. It was all over the place. The end of every old car on the road. My first 240Z, bought with about 60,000 miles on it, drank only unleaded for almost 100,000 more miles before I sold it. Never had a lick of trouble with the engine.

Steve

You're right Steven that it is increasingly difficult to find somebody with proven research or empirically-based information that has no dog in this hunt. I do think it's important enough to do this research as part of my looking into oils- both diff gear, trans and engine.

I have read a lengthy bit on the standards used for testing. If the standards don't test for the results of what the ZDDP affects, then changing technology won't show any affect of course.

I still think that many of the "white papers" posted by the people trying to sell the zddplus stuff is valid, especially the information on the testing "Sequences" as it seems to be intent on clarifying rather than selling. Of course I have no information if their stuff works, is therefore worth the cost or is just rat whiz. GM has apparently addressed the same concerns and has a similar mystical liquid for sale.

http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief4%20-%20Oil%20&%20Additive%20Testing.pdf

[Walter Moore]

Wasn't the original debate about the level of ZDDP during the break-in period?