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Poor man's Porche


kats

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Yes - and pictures from the factory show a 911 sitting beside the Z... This was done by the Design Dept.

Carl,

Lots of people over the years have said that the car in that pic was a "911" - but Matsuo san told me it was actually a 912........ Looking at it, I think he's right.

However, Mr. K said he never suggested looking at the German cars, rather he suggested the XK-E and other Italian models.

In my opinion ( and I know some others quietly share this view, but hardly dare to speak up ) there is far far too much weight given to what Katayama might or might not have "suggested". Half of the time the things being "suggested" - some going as far to say "ordered", as though Katayama was calling out pizza toppings for a home delivery - were already being taken into account. The Chief Designer and his team were not empty-headed kitchen staff waiting for a 'recipe' from several thousand Km away. They had their own influences, their own ideas and their own inspirations - all the time having the edges knocked off of them by the bean counters and the needs of other departments.

The legend of the Katayama influence often overshadows and obscures the stories of the people whose hands and minds actually created the S30-series Z range.

Alan T.

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I could not have put it better, Alan.

So I got my April 1970 edition of Road & Track out and there is no reference to the Porsche 911T. The 914 is mentioned because they featured a road test of it in the issue. Furthermore, the 240Z was introduced in the January issue of Road & Track. The April issue was the road test.

Trivia question of the day. Who owned the Porsche in the picture Carl posted? And why is it sitting next to the Z in the picture? Factory picture? Hardly. That's from a private collection. Carl! Scold, scold.

What I am leaning to believe is that you guys don't know your Porsches very well. Hate to sound like a schmuck, but this conversation is opinion based.

Denise McCluggage put it very well recently when she said Nissan was the best Italian of designs in all of Japan.

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The Ferrari Dino was 6 cylinders, not 4 as has been stated. Originally a 2.0 liter (hence 206 nomenclature, 2.0L, 6 cylinders), later bored to 2.4L (246).

For those that aren't Ferraristi, many of the non-12 cylinder engine cars in the Ferrari lineup (both customer car and Scuderia cars) were labelled "Dino" in honor of Enzo's son Alfredo "Dino" Ferrari. Alfredo studied Engineering in University, and it's long believed he suggested use of a 1.5L 6 cylinder engine for participation in F2 back in the 1950's.

Unfortunately, Dino was stricken with MD, and died in 1956 at the age of 24. Hence, many of the smaller displacement/sub-12 cylinder cars were called Dinos. In fact, the original customer Dinos (the 206 models) were not intended to be Ferraris at all. Rather, they were a sub-brand, not unlike Toyota's Scion. The intent was not only for the 206/246 models to be Dinos, but the successor 308GTB/GTS! However, that changed for whatever reason and the Dino name passed into history.

Today, the Imola circuit is named in honor of both - Autodromo Enzo e Dino Ferrari.

Sorry to hijack, but I am a tifosi, had to correct there!

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The Ferrari Dino was 6 cylinders, not 4 as has been stated. Originally a 2.0 liter (hence 206 nomenclature, 2.0L, 6 cylinders), later bored to 2.4L (246).

Sorry to hijack, but I am a tifosi, had to correct there!

corrected I stand...doh! Must've been thinking about the other 4-cyl cars in the discussion (914, 924 etc)....

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Trivia question of the day. Who owned the Porsche in the picture Carl posted? And why is it sitting next to the Z in the picture? Factory picture? Hardly. That's from a private collection. Carl! Scold, scold.

Hi Chris:

I said ..."pictures from the factory".. I guess I should have said "pictures taken at the factory"...

Brian Long wrote: "Photographs and other illustrations have been sourced almost exclusively from the factory, so dedicated Datsun owners searching for originality are also well catered for." In the next para. Brian writes ."....Matsuo gave us some excellent photographs of the prototypes"

Mr Matsuo in his book shows a photo of the 911 and Z sitting inside - the photo shows the front of both cars - I say "911" only because that is what the caption reads..

FWIW,

Carl B.

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I never heard of the 240Z as a Poor Man's Porsche. They're very different machines (both 914 and 911) and there was no 924, 944 or 928 in the late 60s early 70s. The Porsches of that era provided a very different driving experience even if they performed similarly at the track (Mid and Rear engine cars require very different driving styles as compared to front engine RWD cars.).

I did hear about the 240Z referred as the Poor Man's Jaguar (in relation to the E Type). I heard the same thing when I had my Triumph GT6.

Overall, I think the 240Z is much closer to a Triumph GT6 and Jaguar E-Type than to any other car of that era. They all have inline 6-cylinder engines, fastback rear bodies, long hoods, driver position (very close to the rear wheels).

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corrected I stand...doh! Must've been thinking about the other 4-cyl cars in the discussion (914, 924 etc)....

No worries, an honest mistake :)

Someone (was it you?) correctly pointed out some early Ferrari 4-cylinder race cars. Also, the ASA Mille (1000) GT is a 4-cylinder model that is essentially 1/3 of a 250GT motor. The car was introduced by Enzo himself in 1959, and it was dubbed the "Ferrarina" (baby Ferrari!)...

Anyway, no more hijacking, I promise...it's the Italian blood in me!

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  • 3 weeks later...

I picked up a copy of "Sports Car Market" magazine the other day and thought of this thread. "Sports Car Market" is published in Portland, OR. www.sportscarmarket.com They had an article about the Porsche 914 which included this value graph. There is another thread about current market values. I'll go looking for it.

CW-

(This graph in no way implies that Her Majesty the 26th or Princess 27th are by any means cheap sluts. They are worth far more than any Porsche and much more than what the graph shows)

post-4148-1415080288367_thumb.jpg

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FWIW - some people aren't fans of Keith Martin and Sports Car Market. I find his information useful, if not slightly biased towards Italian marques. He's also honest to his own detriment - he was in a failry public row with Barrett-Jackson, and I lauded his openness about some improprieties there.

For Martin to cover the Z tells me it's arrived. A few years back, he had the Z rated as investment grade "D". It's now up to a "B" because the market for these cars is warming up. That doesn't mean a "1" rated car is going to be worth a specific value, but it does mean that interest is increasing and should be healthy moving forward.

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Just wanted to chime in with my $.02...

I've heard the Poor Mans Porsche comment before and I've even had some uneducated people ask me if my Z was a Porsche. My take is a little different than others. I will agree that the Z and the Porsche are both sports cars but the similarities end there. I-6 vs. H6, 2 seats vs. 4, front engine vs. rear. I see the Z as an inexpensive option compared the XKE and possibly even the Ferrari... 250(?). Regardless, I've always liked the XKE and Ferrari's... but I've never wanted one. The Z, on the other hand, I fell in love with as a kid in the mid 80's and HAD to have one. I would "like" to have an E, 250GTO, or a '73 911 RS, but I don't WANT them. Heck, a '68 Chevy C10 pickup is higher on my list.

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I heard a radio comercial for Darien Nissan Ct. the other day with Bob Sharp talking about the history of the Z. He mentions his racing days and that the Z was introduced to compete with the higher priced Porsches of the day and won . I think he finally sold his Nissan dealership located in Wilton a couple of years ago but still in the area I guess.

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Regarding the graph of the increasing values of the 240Z, 914, and Alfa moving up into the $13,000 - $15,000 range over 20 years...... According to the graph, all started at $5,000 - $7,000. For comparison, let's look at $5,000 in cash invested at 5% compounded for the same 20 years. It would be worth $13,266.49 today.

Subrtact 20 years of insurance and routine maintenance costs on the cars and you probably have a negative number. Keep the cars for their warm fuzzy intangible value, not as part of your retirement portfolio.

Dennis

1971 240Z Original Owner

1970 Porsche 914-6 Show Car

1963 Studebaker Avanti R2

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