Poor man's Porche

[vercingetorix]

I always heard the VW Kharman Ghia referred to as the poor mans Porche.

I say bag the Porche drive the Z.

[psdenno]

Just a little clarification on the Porsche 914 history.

The 914 four cylinder and the 914-6 both hit the market as 1970 models. The "four" was $3,595 on the East Coast and $100 more on the West. The 914-6 listed for $5,999 on the East Coast and $100 more on the West.

Although the Porsche Club of America, as well as other Porsche clubs around the world, rejected 914 owners' membership applications, the Porsche factory did not threaten to pull support from the clubs. Cooler heads eventually prevailed and after a few years, 914s were accepted. It was during that time that I started the Porsche 914 Owners Association which became one of the largest Porsche clubs in the world. Yes, we were, and still are, factory recognized.

Ferdinand Porsche was quoted in 914 ads as saying, "I wanted to design a car young people could afford." I didn't pay attention, and bought a new 1971 240Z instead. I still have it and it's parked in front of my house. I also have a 1970 914-6 in the garage.

Dennis

http://www.porsche914.org

[xray]

Hi Kats:

I can't say for certain that I haven't heard the phrase .."poor man's Porsche" applied to the 240-Z, but if I did, it wasn't very often.

As others have suggested, that phrase was more often applied to the VW/Porsche 914 when introduced, then later to the ill fated 924/944... here in the States.

Carl B.

From the PCA, the phrase was first turned in the late 60s in reference to the 912. Then later applied to the 914, 924, 944, 968 and Boxster. Basically, if you couldn't afford a 911 you were labelled "poor."

BTW, what was ill-fated about the 944? Beautiful lines, good power, exceptional handling, 50/50 balance and solid 8-year production run that converted to the 968 in 1992, ran until 1995 when the Boxster was introduced in 1996. NASA has a vibrant spec944 racing series with a lot of serious racers involved. Maybe you just meant the 924 was ill-fated?

Additionally, the Ferrari 246 Dino was also referred to as a "Poor Man's" Ferrari. After all, it only had 4 cylinders and was (gasp) mid-engined! Of course, nowadays not many poor men can afford a 246....so they buy the next iteration of the PMF--the 308. It's not 12-cylinders, so it's not a Ferrari, right?:sick:.

The irony of the "Poor Man's Porsche" be it the 912 or the 914, is that good examples are nearly (or greater than) the value of some 911s. Additionally, the 246 Dino regularly outprices Testarossas and the occasional 512BBi!

[d240zx2]

I've heard "Poor man's Porsche" since I was sixteen. That was in 1960. It referred to the Karman Ghia versus the venerable 356C and variants. I've driven both thousands of miles, and the 60/61/62 Ghia, when equipped with dual Webers, nearly performs as well as the 356. And cost about a third.

FWIW

Frank

[rdefabri]

I think the comment made about small displacement sports cars may have led to the natural comparison to the 911 of the time (2.0 / 2.2L engines around 150hp). So a 2.4L, 150hp straight-6 sports car makes it easy to compare.

However, I am with Geezer. While I was too young to remember the press around the Z in the early 70's, as the owner of both an E-Type and a 240Z, the similarities are amazing. Straight-6 engines, SU carbs, long nose, hatchback, etc. It's clear that in that regard, the 240Z could be termed a "poor-man's Jaguar". Where I do have a tough time of that is the styling - the Jaguar is simply STUNNING. The Z, while beautiful, seems more no-nonsense and small, not unlike what a small bore sports car of that era (Triumph, Opel GT, 911, etc).

[DougN]

Carl,

If I recall correctly, didn't you sell/trade your Porsche to get your first 240Z? :classic:

[Carl Beck]

BTW, what was ill-fated about the 944? Beautiful lines, good power, exceptional handling, 50/50 balance and solid 8-year production run that converted to the 968 in 1992, ran until 1995 when the Boxster was introduced in 1996. NASA has a vibrant spec944 racing series with a lot of serious racers involved. Maybe you just meant the 924 was ill-fated?

Ops... sorry - actually I was mixing two thought there - and screwed that sentence up. Ill fated - 914 and later the ill fated 928, the first because it wasn't a Porsche and the second because it wasn't a 911.

Agreed - the 944 had beautiful lines. As for "power", yes the Mitsubishi designed, counter-rotating crank, 4 banger ran fairly soothly...

Additionally, the Ferrari 246 Dino was also referred to as a "Poor Man's" Ferrari. After all, it only had 4 cylinders and was (gasp) mid-engined! Of course, nowadays not many poor men can afford a 246....so they buy the next iteration of the PMF--the 308. It's not 12-cylinders, so it's not a Ferrari, right?:sick:.

Actually it wasn't the number of cylinders in the engine - the early Ferrari ran 4 cylinders... Rather it was the fact that Ferrari did not produce, nor sell the "DINO" as a "FERRARI". It did not carry the name "Ferrari" as it was originally produced. It really was a separate Brand, that shared an engine with the FIAT Dino. It was followed by another "DINO" that did not wear the FERRARI name - the DINO 308GT4. (followig the Fiat DINO 2+2).

What is the same - is that both the VW-Porsche 914/S4 and DINO were hyped into something they really were not, and most Porsche and Ferrari customers knew it and rejected them, because they really weren't made for FERRARI nor PORSCHE customers in the first place.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[deadflo]

I know in the April 1970 edition of Road and Track premiering the 240Z they did mention a direct comparison to the Porsche 911T, the lowest priced 911. There was a reference to the horsepower rating and weight of the Porsche and Z as being very close, and performance was expected to be similar.

[Carl Beck]

Carl,

If I recall correctly, didn't you sell/trade your Porsche to get your first 240Z? :classic:

Yes - Actually I was at the Porsche Dealer trying to trade my 67 911S on a 1970 911E... we couldn't close the deal, so I was on my way back to the Base when I passed the DATSUN Dealer and saw a 240-Z in the showroom window. I bought the Z and kept my 911 for another six or eight months... then sold the 911 to another guy on the base (for several thousand dollars more than the Porsche Dealer would give on a trade). I've been driving 240-Z's ever since.

Over the years that followed, all manor of other Classic/Collectible and Special Interest Cars came and went - but the 240-Z always stayed. Without regard to "price" the 240-Z is the best Sports/GT I've ever owned.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Carl Beck]

I know in the April 1970 edition of Road and Track premiering the 240Z they did mention a direct comparison to the Porsche 911T, the lowest priced 911. There was a reference to the horsepower rating and weight of the Porsche and Z as being very close, and performance was expected to be similar.

Yes - and pictures from the factory show a 911 sitting beside the Z... This was done by the Design Dept.

However, Mr. K said he never suggested looking at the German cars, rather he suggested the XK-E and other Italian models.

[westpak]

what is funny is that I have heard that tons of times with the 350Z specially when it first came out and people saw it for the first time at events I attended.

[xray]

Just to clarify, the first Ferrari (1947 tipo125 Sport) ran a 72hp V12 hopped up and supercharged for the 1948 F1 season...

And don't give too much credit to Mitsubishi for the 944. Your post makes it sound like they developed the entire engine, when the fact is Porsche paid Mitsubishi a small royalty for their crank-balance design..The rest of the engine was derived from the 928

...but I digress....