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kats

Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432

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Hi @kats  I just did a quick look and apparently putting some brittle plastics in boiling water for 10 to 30min can revive them:

 

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-forum/950600-restore-brittle-plastic-boil-it.html

 

https://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12060

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Not a Z , but I would like to show this , another local Toyota  2000GT . 
Mr. Shimoura and me visited Mr. Minamiura to see his car , this car he bought new in 1970 at his age 22 ! He is the original owner indeed. The plate shows that this car is truly registered only once ever since  , people know this car is the first registered 2000GT in Nara region. 
He hopes someone takes care of this car with the plate , I thought I can keep the plate but I have never imagined owning one nor falling love with one . 
But looking at this beauty, I gradually inclined to this one . 
 

Some pieces are resemble our S30 cars , some are completely different, it is always fun to look at it .

Kats

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Edited by kats
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Thanks bartsscooterservice , that red is an early model ( 1967 - 1969 )  , bigger driving lamp , smaller rear side markers etc .

For the side note , like S30 , Toyota 2000GT has two types of engine , DOHC ( 2000cc ) and SOHC (2300 cc ) . SOHC version was made only 9 cars , all of them were for export , two of them are automatic transmission. 
Recently the first SOHC MF12-000001 (automatic transmission) was sold for 8800 0000 yen ( 1000000 USD) . 

How about our S30 ? I have seen an interview for engineers of Nissan when the car was new  , they said 30 % of export 240Zs are automatic transmission cars . But nowadays it is hard to see automatic transmission cars , maybe the ratio dropped below 10% now ? 
 

Kats

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2 minutes ago, kats said:

How about our S30 ? I have seen an interview for engineers of Nissan when the car was new  , they said 30 % of export 240Zs are automatic transmission cars . But nowadays it is hard to see automatic transmission cars , maybe the ratio dropped below 10% now ? 

Kats it's 1 of the reasons I'm contemplating keeping my 71 240z an automatic. It's so rare now, many have been converted to manual and the good thing is people literally give away the auto parts and gearboxes. I've got a spare 240z auto box sitting in my backyard because someone gave it to me for free.

I actually don't mind the auto, it is a little slow. Initial pick up is ok, but top end suffers a bit. I haven't tuned it mine you, so might just need some additional ignition / carb tuning to get it really moving along. But an auto was considered a big luxury at the time and commanded a price premium.

This car was also fitted with dealer option aircon, and I think having both of those things is nice especially with the hotter summers we're getting these days. So I would like to retain both.

I certainly don't see many HS30's with auto gearboxes anymore.

 

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IMG_20191123_154708.jpg

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Wow Gavin, more pictures please ! 
Blue interior, RHD , automatic transmission, this car has the rarest combination . 

I really love the blue interior . And an automatic transmission is a trouble free ! Just needs an oil change . 

Kats

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3 hours ago, kats said:

Thanks bartsscooterservice , that red is an early model ( 1967 - 1969 )  , bigger driving lamp , smaller rear side markers etc .

For the side note , like S30 , Toyota 2000GT has two types of engine , DOHC ( 2000cc ) and SOHC (2300 cc ) . SOHC version was made only 9 cars , all of them were for export , two of them are automatic transmission. 
Recently the first SOHC MF12-000001 (automatic transmission) was sold for 8800 0000 yen ( 1000000 USD) . 

How about our S30 ? I have seen an interview for engineers of Nissan when the car was new  , they said 30 % of export 240Zs are automatic transmission cars . But nowadays it is hard to see automatic transmission cars , maybe the ratio dropped below 10% now ? 
 

Kats

Yeah it's an early model indeed. I loved watching at it for some time. It's smaller and lower then the 240Z though...

Maybe we can compare 432Z with " second engine " 240Z.... Also there are both like 350      2000gt and 432Z right ? ( I could be wrong ).

 

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2 hours ago, kats said:

Wow Gavin, more pictures please ! 
Blue interior, RHD , automatic transmission, this car has the rarest combination . 

I really love the blue interior . And an automatic transmission is a trouble free ! Just needs an oil change . 

Kats

Sure,

I know of a grand total of 6 HS30's that were White 904 with Blue interior.

HS30 00063 - Car is no longer Blue (was repainted Silver) and now in the hands of a collector in WA restoring it. [photo and history here]
HS30 00643 - Now a Blue car, no longer has Blue interior [photos here]
HS30 00982 - Previously owned by Cuong in Western Australia, he sold it on. But it was also a manual car. [photos here].
HS30 00990 - which has since been converted to an RB25 powered car and the blue interior was scrapped. [photos here].

HS30 01071 - was previously owned by John Newlyn who owns #35 and I think #99. But 1071 was written off in 1991, but was repainted silver (from white)

So that leaves my car HS30 01415 - which was 904 White and Blue interior with Auto box. [photos here]. [Video Here].

Actually I tell a small lie, there is 1 other White 904 and Blue interior HS30 I know of, but I don't know it's chassis no. and it's documented here. Also a manual car.

So as far as I'm aware it's the only 904 White, Blue Interior Automatic 240z (HS30) in the world. :).

Blue interiors are my favorite, I believe it's very rare even for HLS30's! 

FYI: The mud flaps on this car appear to be Datsun Dealer fitted and have "Datsun" embossed into them. Not seen another set.

 

 

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Hi Kats,

I saw the pistons you sold on Yahoo auctions. I like to look at Z432 /s20 parts for sale on there from time to time, its great to get an understanding of what makes up (and the difference) of the S20 and its related/surrounding parts. It is a great piece of engineering from my point of view. Lucky to have seen a couple in the flesh, S20 that is.

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Hi everyone, thanks so much for your inputs .Those inputs make this thread attractive so much . I really appreciate it , as usual .

Recently I have been writing about various kinds of cars , today I am back on route , Datsun 240Z vs Fairlady Z432 .

I want to say , both are great great cars , each cars has each fantastic things .

About their engines , here are some comparisons .

” Stock specification “

  L24 150 ps , 21kgm / S20 160 ps , 19 kgm

” L24 Racing specification “

  200 ps , 24.5 kgm (71 Monte / Safari )

  250 ps , 25.5 kgm (73 RAC , 2498 cc )

“ S20 Racing specification “

  200 ps , ( 69 JAF Grand Prix ) GTR

  253 ps , 21.9 kgm ( 71 mid ) GTR

  265 ps , ( 72 Fuji Masters ) GTR

Wonderful engines they are , Nissan is not a manufacture like Ferrari or Porsche, but I think Nissan did great ! 

An interesting interview of Nissan works rally team manager Mr. Namba and Mr . Wakabayashi after winning of 1971 Safari rally  he said

“ we dropped its engine power like a normal car , range 2000-6500 rpm , compression ratio 8.0 ( usually 9.5 for racing) . We assumed average octan 93 , field elevation 0-3200 meters for the race. High-tuned engine is not good for this race , we used standard head gasket , we shaped inside of dome .

Also carburetor setup is the key , this rally has various field elevations from zero to 3200 meters , that made us feel challenging.

With the assumed octan 93 ,

we finally settled down setting them at 1800 meters , that was Nairobi “ ...

I am so amazed by reading this interview, what a fascinating they were !

And a clever thing is , they filled up their 510 rally cars with six different kinds of fuel before sending back them to Japan ( maybe this was common for rally team ? ) after winning of the 1970 Safari rally. They thought quality of gas was not the same , they needed to know what was the average quality so that making trouble free engine .

They analyzed and tested those fuel , then they had got the plan for the 1971 Safari rally.

Also an interesting interview for the three ex Prince Murayama engineers is so much fun to read , they did so hard on their racing S20 engine . I will write about it later .

• Citation 

Nissan graph June 1971 

DATSUN 510 & 240Z ( Grand Prix Shuppan )

SKYLINE 2000 GTR MEMORIAL 

( Yaesu Shuppan )

Kats

 

 

 

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Thanks for the great info Kats!

I am hoping you can help translate the 73 RAC specs.

 

For rows 1 to 4, it seems

1. Valve Architecture = SOHC

2. Displacement= 2498cc

3. Bore = 84.8
    Stroke= 73.7

4. Compression Ratio= 11.0

 

What are the last 5 rows?

 

5. Horse power= ~250
     ???
     RPM = 8000

6. ??
    ??
    ??
    ??

7. Cam Duration
    ??
    ??

8. ??
    ??

9. ??

10. ??

THANKS!

 

 

 

 

 

image.png

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Hi Blue , I added notes , I hope you get it .

This data must be a " typical " for works rally cars, each car has each set up I think . 

Kats

L24 rally.jpg

Edited by kats
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SOLEX 44 TYPE 2 , arrived , I am so happy about this set . Jet setting is like this , 

Main 160 / Air.  200 / pilot 60 / pump 30 .

Going to be coupled with Option “ 8L “ camshafts 300 degrees , valve lift 10mm . Also race piston compression ratio 10-11 . 

I am thinking using these optional parts into my spare S20 , but sometimes I tend to think the other way , going to put these into my Z432’s engine. 
If I do that , it would not be easy work for me getting it back to normal. Modified car’s value is lowered in most case , will it be applicable to my Z432 if I put these options into its engine ? To  Use genuine optional parts ,  does it make any difference ? 
( I would think it would have not hurt it’s value if my Z432 would have installed  genuine optional parts at the dealer before the delivery in 1970 , and well documented about those extra ) 

Kats

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Edited by kats
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On 12/3/2019 at 12:55 PM, Gav240z said:

I am also a fan of the Type Q/Type 2 Mikuni 44's... but local legend has it that they don't stay in tune. Apparently the magnesium/alloy composite they are means that as they heat up they distort and create vacuum leaks, leading to poor tunability... At least that's what a local guru (who I trust knows more about them than me says). Have you heard of similar?

By the way is there any difference between the Z432-R option ones and the U20 Roadster versions?

Hi Gavin , I have heard of the issue from the seller , yes the material of the metal is the cause of imperfections of type 2 . It was made of Zinc and it is easy to twist or bend its flange if there is enough heat or if tightening torque of the securing nuts is too much .

About heat , S20 has cross flow configuration , so the impact of the heat is not so serious than that of Lseries , U20 or other turn flow engine .
And it is heavier than aluminum.

Racing model 50 and later type 3 changed their body to aluminum . Molding technology had improved , cost matter might be acceptable for Mikuni . 
 

The seller said U20 and S20 race option are different in fueling system ,some  tiny holes are specifically made for each models. U20 44’s has bigger idle port to help street ability four cylinder ,  2 litter engine. 
 

S20 race option 44’s was designed for more racing use , those tiny holes don’t think about below 3000 rpm . What am I going to do with 8L camshafts? Definitely not street use !

Kats

Here are some shots with type 3 , 40 mm .

 

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Edited by kats

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Hey Kats,

Like you, I always liked the look of the Type Q carbs. I think they have a nice aesthetic appeal. I would use them on your hot rod S20 build, but leave your Z432 as original as possible. It's beautiful as it is.

Many owners of U20 Roadsters remove the Type Q's for later carbs, which I think is a shame. I like to see the original carbs on a U20 motor. But not many people think the way I do when it comes to that level of originality with the old Roadsters. Very hard to find a good original car here, many have been messed about with over the years.

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I say "put the 44mm on the spare S20"  Make it your special race engine and keep the Z432 original.  I'm drooling.  Merry Christmas!

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56 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

44mm is a big carb for a 2litre engine.

I have 45DCOE-9s on both my S20s.

Driveability is fine. Even with 8L cams, S20 is a pussycat.

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1 hour ago, 240260280 said:

You can make them work but 40mm is better.

So, you know how long the piece of string is then...?

 

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Merry Christmas ! 
 

I will stay “ stock “ on my Z432 , make a racing engine using the spare engine.

Blue , I like 40’s too !

Kats

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Hi Kats,

Merry Christmas!  As Alan mentions, you can make nearly any size DCOE carb work with any engine due to their adjustable sub-componets, however; Weber does give recommendations for racing and street use. These are plotted below.

 

In parallel, many engine tuners over the past decades have published recommended configurations for the street. They generally recommend 40mm and 42mm for street for 2.4 to 2.6 litre engines.... so for a two litre, 40mm would lean more to the higher side.

According to the great DCOE tuner John Passini, he mentions in several publications that the transition from a small choke to a larger carb throat causes fuel to precipitate to the carb floor.  For example going from 32mm choke to a 40mm carb throat has less fuel precipitation than going from 32mm throat to 45mm carb throat.

Weber recommends that the ideal choke size for racing is ~ 80% of the diameter of the carb throat. So for a 45mm carb, a 36mm choke would be best.  This is a very large choke for street driving and give poor low rpm performance.

 

A lot of great data is at this site that Hoover and I love.. they use 82% ratio for Solex:  http://www.carry-back.com/CARRY BACK Carbu setting 2.htm

 

DCOE Carb Sizing.png

DCOE default settings for 240z & 260z from published books.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by 240260280
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