Unusual Kenmeri QLD

[aarc240]

Alan's contention that Nissan did use a unique number sequence for each type may make more sense than the other story I was given.

There may be some very real discrepancies in the build of the vehicle compared to what is widely regarded as standard for a GT-R but there is no doubt that in law unless the prefix can be shown to be fraudulent then the bodyshell is what Nissan said it is - a GT-R

Dunno about anyone else, I've never come across anything from Nissan to say that a KPGC110 could be anything other than a GT-R.

Unless you can PROVE that the prefix is fraudulent OR that Nissan used the same prefix for something else then you are stuck with Nissan's own definition.

btw, if anyone cares to use some decent image processing software then they will quickly identify the extra marks in the second digit of the serial number as impact damage from a sharp object. The impact point was slightly above and to the right of the middle of the 0 and traveled in an upwards and to the right path.

The K and GC of the prefix are an exact match in style to those in the KHGC on one of our cars so I think it is fair to say that it is probably genuine (even if anomalous).

[aarc240]

Not directly relevant to this but sort of related - if there are 'marque & model expert records' out there then maybe Alan can tell us where Nissan started the SERIAL number portion for the KHGC version? And maybe when?

[240kconvertible]

Does anyone know how many C110 coupes (not GTR's) were produced in total worldwide?

[HS30-H]

hmm, maybee i'm hallucinating after alan's retort, but don't the first two digits of the firewall vin look tampered with?

Mat,

I thought I was hallucinating when I first read some of the things written on this thread, so I know how you feel.

When I was first asked my opinion on this particular car ( by the previous owner ) I did bring up the possibility that the firewall VIN stamp could have been ( expertly ) "tampered with" by a previous owner some time in the dark and distant past. Not having had the opportunity to look closely at the car in the metal, it is hard to come to an opinion on whether that is the case or not. If I was going to have a close look at it, I'd want to see the reverse side of that firewall panel just as much as the outside face.

I believe there is no stamped VIN tag present with the car that would also show engine type, taxation class etc (?).

I am sorry, but if you are going to quote me, then how about you quote the whole thing? in no way did i say that this was a FACT! merely my understanding from what i had heard..

I'm sorry Kent, but you wrote ".....that is what I gather." and you appeared to agree with it. That's the way I read it, anyway. The more people that do that, the more conjecture and inaccurate supposition becomes accepted as - yes - "fact". My intention is not to attack you, just what you are repeating and effectively endorsing.

In my opinion, and based on common sense just as much as what we could call 'facts' about the factory KPGC110s, it would be plain daft to believe that Nissan 'used up' spare and unused C110 GT-R bodyshells to make different C110 models, and not change the VIN prefixes on them. Do people honestly believe that thousands of 'KPGC110' VIN-prefixed bodyshells were made? The car in question has a body serial number in the five thousands whilst the known factory C110 GT-Rs sold to the public didn't even make it over three digits - so where are all the others? This car doesn't even appear to have some of the main characteristics of a true C110 GT-R bodyshell - so how can anyone say that it is "....one of the chassis left over from the GT-R production run."???!!!

i am sorry.. i thought that is what i just said? that this car didn't have the moulded GT-R fenders.....

I'm not sure that you understand what I'm getting at? I'm talking about the characteristics of the bodyshell itself, and not the parts that were attached to it. The factory GT-R 'Overfenders' were FRP mouldings that were pop-riveted to the body structure. The rear quarters and inner arch panel pressings of the GT-R were different to all the other models. That's a FUNDAMENTAL difference in the actual sheetmetal of the cars, and the car in question does NOT appear to have the GT-R style pressings and structure ( at least according to the information supplied to me by the former owner ), so how can it have been a GT-R bodyshell? I'm not talking about stuff that was bolted onto the car ( that's a whole other can of worms ), I'm talking about structure. Have you seen a real C110 GT-R with its Overfenders removed? If you have, then you will know what I am talking about.

The manufacture date of the car is August '73 or thereabouts. That obviously would not fit into the time frame Alan laid out for 100% true GT-R builds.

Hold on Brian. I only stated that C110 GT-R production is noted as starting in January 1973. I didn't say that they were all made in January 1973, and I didn't say when production is noted as having finished. I don't see why a true C110 GT-R couldn't have been made in August 1973 or thereabouts - so the build date doesn't really tell us one thing or another, as far as I can see.

Alan T.

[Mr Camouflage]

Another theory, (completely made up) .....

It was a monday morning at the factory, or a friday afternoon, and the guy pressing the numbers into the firewall panels messed up and forgot to reset the stamps back to KHGC after pressing up some GT-R firewalls.

Though I agree that it wouldn't be to hard to make the H into a P.

Also, my KHGC is #4253 and thats a late 73 (estimated build date) as its a 1/74 compliance date, not that it really means anything in relation to KPCG chassis numbers, but if the car VIN was modified from KHGC, then its probably not an early 1973 car.

Either way. Ray isn't trying to pass the car off as a GT-R. He says its a GT-X 2000. Though his statement the GT-X is "based on the GT-R of 1973" isn't exactly correct. (Thats like saying my '88 GTS-X is based on the GTS-R).

He's been trying to sell this car for a few years now hasn't he? I remember when he wanted $13 000 for it. He should try his luck on ebay with it, if not just for the advertising.

[Mat Big Hat]

ok, this is really intriguing, so i spent some time examining the pictures of ray's car from lachlan's collection, pics of before, during and after the white paintwork and rb20de build

here's some of what i've discovered:

the green painted (original colour?) firewall vin # pic appears with the group of photos, but there is not another shot or angle of the vin

there's a pic of the instrument cluster, and the entire thing appears to have been spray painted silver

there are no telltale signs of gt-r "spartan" bits (or any jdm bits for that mattrer)

the wheel flares are not the typical gt-r style but seem to be flexible and are mounted a bit lower on the body, and (now this is important) the car was originally flare-less

a pic of the rear disc brakes shows only a rotor hanging on the axle with the drum removed, and the caliper sitting on top and the hydraulic line twisted backwards

[khughes]

Alan,

yes i am aware that the inner guard and outer 1/4 panels on the GT-R are completely different to the rest of the C110's, i wasn't talking about just the add on flares, which i know are pop-rivetted to the body.. obviously i didn't explain my self properly.

another theory (and it is just that a theory, not fact.. and in no way provable by me so don't have a go at me )

Why couldn't nissan have made a whole bunch of stamped chassis (without outer panels), then when the GT-R wasn't selling in high numbers as they may have expected (ie. the oil price crisis etc. that caused the end of the GTR until the R32)(now i don't know if the GT-R's were a strictly numbered production run, ie. only 75 will be made type deal??), they converted the extra body's into run of the mill cars? to be sold as GTX's etc.... i would imagine that back in the 70's things like this could have happened (humans were in charge, and humans are prone to make interesting descisions), they were a far cry from the computer tracked manufacturing plants of today, where i agree.. this wouldn't happen..

[akwikz]

Well, I'm sure the new owner will be happy to take questions and examine the car more closely to help sort things out :devious: .

Brian

[khughes]

what sort of questions

[aarc240]

Though I agree that it wouldn't be to hard to make the H into a P.

A lot harder than you realise if the result is not to show up, particularly when the surface is cleaned with an acid and then washed off.

I've had some training & experience in this sort of forensic examination and believe me, it's a real bitch to completely conceal evidence of tampering.

Even when the result at the site is extremely good there are often tiny signs of movement in the metal further away and modern image processing software on a real graphics workstation can reveal features you would be surprised by.

Also, my KHGC is #4253 and thats a late 73 (estimated build date) as its a 1/74 compliance date

As our KHGC is #302 and complianced in 2/73 then less than 4000 were built in almost 12 months including both GT and GL badging?

[aarc240]

they were a far cry from the computer tracked manufacturing plants of today, where i agree.. this wouldn't happen..

Ummmm - from some of the FUBAR's I hear about from relatives & friends working in two of the big 3 manufacturers here, computer lines stuff up even more spectacularly at times.

When a computer build order goes wrong the line doesn't stop and you can't pull either the car or the parts off 'cause there's nowhere to put anything extraneous.

Try a base model green sedan where the parts to be installed included a set of orange & black front bucket seats and a rear wagon seat of totally different colour! They tell me they just threw everything inside the car and let it go for the inspection team to sort out.

[g72s20]

Having spent a bit of time with Ray, and having a good look at the car as well, I see it like this, it is a genuine 1973 Nissan Skyline GT-X. It was built as a GT-X and left the factory as a GT-X. Ray recognised it for what it was and saw the potential for a GT-R clone. Ray built it with a different philosophy to Lachlans(ALFADOG) approach, that is, how to imitate the GT-R mechanicals, was the primary objective with the cosmetics (bodywork, badges etc) being a secondary concern. Ray truly pioneered the retro engineering of the RB20 to resemble the S20. Prince Webers on a "Ray fabricated" manifold, a non functioning dissie and leads to add to the likeness to name two. The rear disc conversion is his as well.

I think the best we could say about the VIN is someone who had first hand knowledge of the assembly line at the plant during this era MAY be able to explain it satisfactorily...other than that I think we're stuck with the frustration of conjecture and best guesses, but then it all adds up to a great thread!!

Why it got to Port Moresby and with an L20 would be an interesting story that we are unlikely to ever know.

The only KGC10 GT-X I know of sold in Australia during the original model life was also bought new from a Port Moresby (Papua New Guinea) Nissan Datsun dealer by none other than Doug Whitford. perhaps It was possible to order a JDM Spec car off shore? No pushback from the governors of local domestic market range?

This particular car still has the dealer optioned triple mikunis on the L20 and an engine bay plate to highlight the fact!!