Datsun 240k Gl 1977 Needing Advice Or Feedback?

[aarc240]

Alan

The ONLY Skyline rebadged as a Datsun in Australia was the C110 and was then called a 240K with NO reference to Skyline.

Not the smartest marketing move by Nissan as they lost all connection to the heritage available as a Skyline so the 240k was regarded as just another passenger car (including the GT variant). They didm't even have the smarts to link the 240z and 240k as having the same base engines!

afaik, none of the other models badged as Datsuns were known as other than Datsuns in other markets (ever heard of a Nissan P510 for example?). Correct me please.

Yes, that KPGC10 that I considered was a Nissan Skyline GT-R badged car and it was physically there on the showroom floor.

No big write-ups in the press? Sure weren't and not too surprising considering how plain the C10 was compared to the Datsun 1200 coupes, 1600SSS and 240Z's sitting on the same floor. It was a seriously ordinary car in their company, even bordering on ugly!

During those years ('68 to late '71) there was little consistency in the Datsun / dealer structure and many dealers went their own way with importing. That really didn't change until the 1600 proved it's worth and made Japanese cars more acceptable to the general public.

The quoted example of the CSP311 Silvias through Capitol Motors was one, Skyline GTB's in late '68 and early '69 through Commonwealth Motors Broken Hill were others.

There WAS no control and certainly no franchise to prevent it.

Maybe you can call it 'grey market' but it was at least officially sanctioned otherwise brand new cars requiring the usual dealer preperation would NOT have been available.

I have little doubt that Nissan did not 'officially' export S20 cars, but equally it is clear that official sanction was required to source those that did go out.

I've never heard even a rumour about any KPGC110 even privately imported, and would be really surprised if any came in for any reason. There would have been NO chance of selling a DOHC triple carb 150HP 1150kg car at anything like a profit when Holden was busy selling cars of slightly less weight with a 190hp 3300cc triple carb 6 called an XU1 Torana.

Crikey, the Datsuns and Nissans of the time were not even considered by the petrol heads who had 375hp V8's, 310hp 6's and 190hp 6's available with their beloved Ford, Chrysler and Holden brands!!!! Even my WIFE had one of those 375hp V8 Fords!?!

I guess you haven't lived with the 'older' generation of Australians who remembered all too well the Japanese as the 'Yellow Peril' during WW2 or you would realise that ANYTHING 'Nipon' was seriously frowned on for a long time. NEVER under estimate the sensitivity of the Japanese people to criticism, particularly in those years with regard to their part in WW2.

Miles can probably give a more direct take on the CURRENT attitudes in Japan to accurately recording that part of their history.

[tonyasap]

Sorry All. I've been away a while. Please feel free to debate on this thread.

It has provided quite some reading and has been very interesting.

I'm leaning towards restoring to original as it is pretty much that way. The Interior is still like out of the factory (no cracks etc) just a little dusty. Still has a straight body and all original grilles, bumbers and badges. I was trying to find some pics' to post in her former glory but having trouble locating them. Soon as I do I'll post.

Thanks for your input and keep threading.

[HS30-H]

afaik, none of the other models badged as Datsuns were known as other than Datsuns in other markets (ever heard of a Nissan P510 for example?). Correct me please.

aarc240,

Yes, I have heard of a Nissan P510 Bluebird. They were sold as Nissans in Japan.

The reason we are discussing this question of rebadging Nissans as 'Datsuns' is because you linked the 'Nissan' brand name with the word 'Nippon' - suggesting that it might have offended Australian sensibilities so soon after the war. But I don't think there's much substance to such a suggestion; the engines of the cars had 'NISSAN' written in bloody great letters across the valve covers anyway.........

Yes, that KPGC10 that I considered was a Nissan Skyline GT-R badged car and it was physically there on the showroom floor.

There must be photos of the car somewhere, and some documentary evidence ( sales literature etc ) from the dealer. I'd LOVE to see that. I've never seen evidence of a complete S20-engined car displayed for sale outside Japan, and I still find it amazing to read. Only thing I have ever seen was a part cut-away display S20 race engine ( on injection ) which was shown by Nissan in Germany during the mid-Seventies. No other sightings whatsoever.

No big write-ups in the press? Sure weren't and not too surprising considering how plain the C10 was compared to the Datsun 1200 coupes, 1600SSS and 240Z's sitting on the same floor. It was a seriously ordinary car in their company, even bordering on ugly!

Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that NOTHING was ever reported in the motoring press. To my mind, that just makes it even more likely that we are talking about a one-off ( or possibly two-off ) grey import.

And I don't see what the looks of the KPGC10 have to do with it ( even though I'd say that it looked pretty damned interesting for '71 / '72 ) especially when you mention the 1200 coupe and 1600SSS ( which were pretty enough, but hardly drop-dead gorgeous ).

It was the specification of the KPGC10 that was worth talking about, and worth coverage in the press - especially considering that it's race success was current and on-going at the time.

Maybe you can call it 'grey market' but it was at least officially sanctioned otherwise brand new cars requiring the usual dealer preperation would NOT have been available.

I have little doubt that Nissan did not 'officially' export S20 cars, but equally it is clear that official sanction was required to source those that did go out.

"Officially sanctioned" to what level? I'm sorry, but this whole thing sounds like an exception that proves a rule. When you first mentioned official sales of S20-engined cars in Australia further back in this thread, I took it to mean that some kind of sales volume and dealer back-up was involved - possibly with some advertising and press coverage to back up the effort. Seems to me like nothing of the sort happened, and we are still talking about a one or two-off exception. I obviously made the mistake of reading more into than there ever really was ( ? ).

I guess you haven't lived with the 'older' generation of Australians who remembered all too well the Japanese as the 'Yellow Peril' during WW2 or you would realise that ANYTHING 'Nipon' was seriously frowned on for a long time.

On the contrary, I am well aware of the power of such feelings. My uncle was with the Chindits in Burma, and was taken prisoner by the Japanese. He was imprisoned as a POW first in Burma and then Thailand, and we all know what happened to those guys don't we? The Pacific War was very real here in the UK, so don't go thinking for one minute that this was a theatre of war that the British people have forgotten all about. I had to grow up with the stories ( and some of the irrational prejudices ) - so I don't think I need to be reminded of anything to do with war-related stories and their legacies.

NEVER under estimate the sensitivity of the Japanese people to criticism, particularly in those years with regard to their part in WW2.

Miles can probably give a more direct take on the CURRENT attitudes in Japan to accurately recording that part of their history.

I don't think I EVER underestimate it, for I have heard the stories of the 'victors' and compared them with first-hand tales from the mouths of the 'vanquished' - some of whom I now count as relatives. I have first-hand experience of Japan over a 20-odd year period which includes an extended period of living and working there. My partner's father was an Imperial Navy surgeon during the Pacific War years, and has recounted many stories of those times to me. I have also met the parents and grandparents of many friends and work colleagues, who eventually discussed things that they had kept quiet about for many years. I even met one friend's grandfather who told me - upon meeting me for the first time - that the last time he had seen an Englishman, he was looking at him down the sight of his gun.

Above all, I have come to believe that there was bravery, cowardice, chivalry and cruelty on both sides - and that the power of the victor to write the history and make the moral judgements afterwards did not change the fact that the common man and woman have always been the ones to pay for the greed, ambition and pride of a relatively small few. There are two sides to the stories, and most of us usually only ever hear one.

Alan T.

[g72s20]

They didm't even have the smarts to link the 240z and 240k as having the same base engines!

Not true Art, here's one example from a n Australian publication.

Take a close look at this ad

No big write-ups in the press? Sure weren't and not too surprising considering how plain the C10 was compared to the Datsun 1200 coupes, 1600SSS and 240Z's sitting on the same floor. It was a seriously ordinary car in their company, even bordering on ugly!

Sorry Art but if you mean to include the KPGC10 in the above in my experience you are in the 1%ers, or simply talking about a different car.

It was a seriously ordinary car in their company, even bordering on ugly!

You've gotta be joking!Please take a look in my galleryand re assure yourself (and me!)that the silver /grey car with the black wheels is an example of what you saw with the 24 ounce and company.To the untrained eye my car is a KPGC10. Where ever it has been displayed it has been described as " A 1600 2door on steroids" to "horniest/sickest car NISSAN ever made!" ...it goes on. One memorable comment which was made by an admiring older women more to the car itself as she traced a hand along its edge as if it were a thoroughbred horse was " What a timeless stunner you are..":knockedou NOT my words but an example of peoples initial reaction to seeing one in the flesh for the first time. My personal opinion is the KPGC10 profile it is one of the best/most pleasing proportioned hard top coupes ever to make it from the drawing board to the showroom. Make of this what you will, but I must add I find the S54BEIII profile equally enchanting:) I also believe these things cast a spell over hapless owners who come to perceive them as more than the sum of their respective nuts and bolts:love:

During those years ('68 to late '71) there was little consistency in the Datsun / dealer structure and many dealers went their own way with importing. That really didn't change until the 1600 proved it's worth and made Japanese cars more acceptable to the general public.

The quoted example of the CSP311 Silvias through Capitol Motors was one, Skyline GTB's in late '68 and early '69 through Commonwealth Motors Broken Hill were others.

There WAS no control and certainly no franchise to prevent it.

I agree with you here 100%. This describes exactly as it appeared to the likes of me and I believe goes a long way to explain the inconsistancies we uncover as we look back years later.

Art you mentioned a NISSAN jacket in a previous post. D'ya reckon you could post a pic of it? Not doubting, but curious what a NISSAN jacket from 1972 looks like, my car being a 1972 Nissan also:classic: I've gathered some period correct patches for just such a jacket and any pics you could offer would be greatly appreciated

Please don't let this end here. I suspect there is a lot more about this tale to uncover.

Cheers guys,

Jim.

[g72s20]

Above all, I have come to believe that there was bravery, cowardice, chivalry and cruelty on both sides - and that the power of the victor to write the history and make the moral judgements afterwards did not change the fact that the common man and woman have always been the ones to pay for the greed, ambition and pride of a relatively small few. There are two sides to the stories, and most of us usually only ever hear one.

No truer words ever spoken Alan.

Jim.

[aarc240]

Alan

Agreed, no truer words! War is bloody ugly whichever side you are on and I would bet that the poor buggers we left in Vietnam felt the same.

I actually meant Nissan outside of JDM, just left out a word or two.

Still don't believe Nissan was a brand well known elsewhere until the late 70's / early 80's.

We didn't see cam covers with 'NISSAN' until '72. The first L4's & L6's had 'DATSUN' on them with either 'OHC' (L4) or '2400 OHC' (L6).

There were even some without either Nissan OR Datsun on them. Reports indicate this was also the case in USA.

In the early 70's there was not much coverage of the JDM racing here so the exploits of the S20 powered cars were not well known. Most motor sport reports were centred on the Australian Touring car racing, some on sports car racing and some on local rallying. You had to look real carefully in the small columns for news from the rest of the world and Japan rarely featured. Australians then tended to think everything auto was either the 'mother country' (rallying) or USA (brute horsepower sedans).

I would agree that grey market is closest, but that does not change the fact that at least a few S20 powered cars WERE sold outside JDM whether with or without a full scale sales campaign. A true grey market product does NOT get any factory support and often no warranty which wasn't the case with the white KPGC10 I looked at. It had Nissan handbooks (in Japanese) and a 3 or 4 page (don't remember which) giving the most important details in English which carried the Datsun Australia letterhead.

Were they 'dipping a toe in the water' to see what interest there was? I doubt it as the factory would have been aware the C10 was to be replaced the following year and presumably the decision to market the Skyline as a Datsun 240K had already been made.

Jim

Interesting ad you found, how wide a circulation did the publication have? The linkage was pretty much unknown to the car club types here in South Oz. I had by then owned 2 Nissans and 2 Datsuns and still didn't see that ad.

Maybe just not looking!

The silver/grey car is the same body. The car as I saw it was an off-white (slightly dirty cream shade actually), black bonnet, skinny black wheels with cross ply tyres, black interior and not a lot going for it. Rather like a 432R 'cause the owner was expected to put his own wheels on it for competition use.

It did look a lot better after being sold as it was promptly fitted with a set of wide Minilite wheels with decent radial tyres. He also had the bonnet resprayed with Ford's 'GT blackout' which was actually a semi gloss instead of the ugly flat black it started with.

Must have had SOME factory / dealer support as it went in to the dealer for servicing and maintenance.

Today we can appreciate it for what it was but not at the time. I also find the S54's and the C10 pretty neat now, and actually prefer the lines of a 260z 2+2 to those of a 240z (and we own one of each). Not so keen on the 240K GT styling although that is what our club car is (KHGC110 000302). Tastes change radically, don't they?

If a KGC10 became available and I could shift the C110, yes I would.

The Nissan jacket is plain black with NISSAN in white block letters across the back. Nothing fancy and I curse not keeping a 'DATSUN' jacket to go with it.

The Datsun jackets were actually a lot better, deep blue with white lettering and the logo in red, white and a lighter blue. Really cool for a young bloke back then!

[g72s20]

Hello Art,

That particular ad came from an Australian issue "Readers Digest". I've just done a quick check of my other 240K ads, the sales brochure, Modern Motor , Wheels, Motor Manual, Classic Cars( a British publication). All from 1973-1975, all make mention of the 240Z engine connection. DATSUN 240Z....DATSUN 240K...I think they were making some attempt, but fell in the mud with the 120Y , 180B , 240 C.

As an aside I've got pics here of what was planned for Australia as the 240B or 260B (Nov.'73) In Japan it was the Bluebird U2000GT or GT-X.

Any connection made in Australia to the Skyline for the 240K, was always in an Australian magazine road test or article. I can find no mention from Nissan-Datsun in their Australian ads that I've got my hands on. I guess they felt it would mean nothing to their target market who would be unlikely to know of it's motorsport heritage, and the '64-'67 GT connection was too obscure.... Too much Prince (basically unknown) and not enough Datsun. Different story in England. The one ad I've seen introduces it as a new executive saloon called the Skyline, and says the engine is a close relative of Datsuns famous rally winning 240Z.

It had Nissan handbooks (in Japanese) and a 3 or 4 page (don't remember which) giving the most important details in English which carried the Datsun Australia letterhead.

Will you please stop teasing the sh*t outa me with stuff like this?:disappoin (Don't you dare, I'm only joking:p )To hear that this kind of documentation existed, only fires me up to try and get some acknowledgment out of NISSAN somehow?!?!....and to hear this morning that NISSAN themselves have lost documentation passed on to them for translation/verification of one of the KGC10's brought in through New Guinea as a private import:mad:

Must have had SOME factory / dealer support as it went in to the dealer for servicing and maintenance.

Can you expand on who the dealer is(was?) and any other relevant info Art? Are you interested in recovering as much about this fascinating piece of history as possible? Things like dates are really helpful. These can be used to then cross reference local and other publications of the time. I have a few sources to run by the info you've provided so far, but verification in some tangeable form will really make them sit up and take notice:classic:

You appear to have been well connected at the time and in an enviable position to sooth enquiring minds! I'm still curious about the jackets. In what capacity did you wear them that Datsun(?) could ask you what, and what not to wear? I'm betting you have a lot of pics and interesting info of this era!?

Cheers guys, and keep the good questions and info flowing:classic:

Jim.

[aarc240]

Ummmm, just looked at an old Wheels ad and it sure does mention the link to the 240z. Must've been one of those times of "You have got to be kidding!".

I had heard rumours about a 260B back then, but never knew much more than hearsay.

English ad makes a lot more sense continuing the Skyline name, although the 'executive saloon' description would have REALLY stretched the credibility boundaries here. Imagine a 240K described that way when just down the road you could get a Ford Fairlane or Holden Statesman, either of which came with a V8, air, power steer, LSD available, etc etc. What a joke!

Pity about the lost docs although that has happened before. Often enough to make one wonder whether Nissan might have 'oops, we lost them' so that the history remains obscure. You can't even get copies of the FIA Homologation papers from them for anything earlier than about 1995 and they flatly deny ever having any FIA papers from the Prince era.

The dealer was Ken Eustace Datsun, now sadly defunct. It would have been late January 1972 as that was when I disposed of my Datsun Coupe.

Datsun Australia had good leverage to encourage wearing the jackets, they were supplying a lot of special bits at really good prices. Didn't do much good though, job requirements kept getting in the way.

As so often happens, frequent moves and a job that dictated the end of motorsport by 1973 has resulted in what pics ever got to me being lost. The odd pic has come to me from relatives but not much.

A friend in nearby Clare, John Drage, is in the same position and he won the SA Rally Championship in 1978(?).

[HS30-H]

Still don't believe Nissan was a brand well known elsewhere until the late 70's / early 80's.

That would be because the 'Nissan' parent company name was not being promoted outside Japan. But I feel sure the reason why the Nissan name wasn't being promoted was not anything to do with it possibly looking or sounding like 'Nippon' ( we will have to agree to disagree on that point ).

We didn't see cam covers with 'NISSAN' until '72. The first L4's & L6's had 'DATSUN' on them with either 'OHC' (L4) or '2400 OHC' (L6).

There were even some without either Nissan OR Datsun on them. Reports indicate this was also the case in USA.

Well, the first L4 & L6 cam covers had the word 'NISSAN' on them ( because they were first sold in the Japanese market ). I don't know too much about the Australian market, but I'm 100% sure that the L24 engines fitted to the Australian market HS30 'Datsun 240Z' models had 'NISSAN 2400 OHC' and then 'NISSAN OHC' on their cam covers, and the first of these started arriving in Australia in 1970.

L6 cam covers without either 'Nissan' or 'Datsun' on them I have never seen, apart from aftermarket ( non Nissan ) product.

Were they 'dipping a toe in the water' to see what interest there was? I doubt it as the factory would have been aware the C10 was to be replaced the following year and presumably the decision to market the Skyline as a Datsun 240K had already been made.

That's just what I was thinking when I read what you wrote, and it is why the car ( cars? ) sound like grey import one-offs to me.

The car as I saw it was an off-white (slightly dirty cream shade actually), black bonnet, skinny black wheels with cross ply tyres, black interior and not a lot going for it.

He also had the bonnet resprayed with Ford's 'GT blackout' which was actually a semi gloss instead of the ugly flat black it started with.

Two things intrigue me here. First of all, the KPGC10 came from the Factory with RADIAL tyres. A special glovebox sticker unique to the C10 GT-R model reminded owners of this fact ( and the pressures which they were to be inflated to ). Why did the car you saw have crossplies on it if it was new?

Secondly, I don't believe any KPGC10s came from the Factory with flat black bonnets. They were steel ( as opposed to FRP ) and were always body colour.

I'm beginning to think that the car you saw in the Australian showroom might have been 'pre-owned' ( ie - used, and not Factory fresh ). I'm intrigued.

Alan T.

[sakijo]

I am 3rd generation Japanese-American whose family came from Okinawa. The atrocities of war were much more than I care to discuss and can't speak for the Japanese living today.

Getting back to the hijacked topic . . . . .aarc240 - can you provide solid data on what you say? Were KPGC10s actually sold in OZ? Not questioning your story, but looking for proof of something that has eluded us to date. As far as we all know, C10s were not sold outside of Japan. Do you have the missing link?

[aarc240]

Alan,

Cam covers - take that up with the Americans. I understand they also had 'DATSUN' covers initially (query Carl Beck IZCC on that).

Sorry, you are wrong on the cam covers delivered here. Through '70 and at least most of '71 I did not see ONE Nissan cover and I was in and out of the dealer's floor regularly (my Datsun Coupe was frequently displayed there)

Tyres were identical to those fitted to the 240z sitting beside it - H rated cross plies. That only sticks in the memory because we couldn't believe _either_ car was actually to be sold with that crap on it.

Why? Who knows!

Were the bonnets _always_ body colour? Where is proof of that?

Anyway, why black? I don't have that information. Maybe some bright spark decided a plain white car was very ordinary.

As with the tyres, the people who could answer are not available.

Pre-owned? Not in this State buddy!! Even then our laws were VERY stringent about selling something as new when in fact it was not. That would have been a _very_ quick way for a dealer to go out of business.

Entirely aside from the legal implications, the car had 27 miles on the odometer which is about right for delivery. That stuck because the dealer principal didn't want the odometer to go to 30 miles in a short test drive. And no, they were _not_ in the habit of disconnecting speedos, again because the penalties were getting pretty severe.

Miles,

Apologies, I shouldn't have brought that up. My father also served and although he didn't hold any grudges he also wouldn't speak of it.

On the hijacked topic, unfortunately I didn't have the foresight 34 years ago to take lots of pics! (must do something to get the foresight as sharp as hindsight)

No, I would love to have had solid data but since I didn't buy it I don't have a receipt or delivery papers.

About the only way I can see of ever proving what was actually sold and where would be a careful audit of the delivery documentation Nissan presumably had and probably don't have now.

Art

[Mr Camouflage]

Sorry Art, I think you are mistaken about cam covers. All 240Z covers had either Nissan 2400 OHC covers, or NISSAN OHC covers.

I've never ever seen a DATSUN L6 cover, ever. not in photos or in real life, and i've seem plenty of 1970 240Z's. I have photos early VIN Australian 240z's andf they all have nissan valve covers.

Do you have any photos of Datsun covers you could post?

Different case for other models, engines such as A12's R16's, U20's. Some said datsun, some said nissan.