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Patcon

Series I cars

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I just bought an early car out of a salvage auction in Miami. It's always a little bit of a gamble when you do that. The car appears to have been recently painted so I took a chance they didn't spend money for paint on a rusty pig. Well guess what?! They painted a rusty pig!!!! It's number 7848...the lowest number I've ever owned. Now I need to decide what to do with it. I really don't want another huge project right now. I am also trying to figure out which of the early parts are missing.

I know the following:

Vented hatch and vertical defroster glass is missing

Early steering wheel is missing

20 mph speedo is there

No badges on the qtrs - missing

Center console may be wrong too

What else would be on an early car?

I searched the forum and got 322 pages of hits. Went through 3 pages of results before giving up

and used google to try to find the answer too

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Congrats on your purchase of rusty bacon. 

Must be the moon's position with Uranus rising or something, early cars are popping up all ova da' place! First I find 3798, then you dig up 7848.  Then the suspiciously light and flexible remains of 2744 followed me home yesterday. It's strickly a parts car (don't even THINK about this body...) but it may have some things you're missing that I don't need for 3798. Keep in touch. 

 

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@zKars

Yeah, I saw your other post about the dearly departed. I hate to be a grave robber but you know "parts is parts" :ph34r:@wh

@wheee!

I will try to get some pics up in the next couple of days. I have very rose colored glasses but I am not sure they are rose enough for this one...

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14 hours ago, Patcon said:

What else would be on an early car?

Here's my list of items that changed from Series 1 to Series 2...

image.png

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1 hour ago, Namerow said:

Here's my list of items that changed from Series 1 to Series 2...

image.png

I like "chassis" and "engine" in particular...

When it comes down to it, doesn't this kind of question point to the fact that "Series One" and "Series Two" are fairly nebulous terms, coined well after the fact in an attempt to line up a set of ducks? A set of ducks that Nissan themselves didn't really make much attempt to line up?

There always seem to be anomalies and exceptions to the rule, and the 'Series' terms certainly don't seem to work accurately on Japanese domestic market cars or indeed any non-North American market car.

The one big difference where a line can be drawn - on a car-by-car basis - is the change from non-vented quarter and vented tailgate to vented quarter and non-vented tailgate. Many of the other small detail differences did not change as part of one single step, so how can the 'Series' terms be applied to them? 

   

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I would think that most of us that have been around the early cars understands the term is used loosely. It is not definitive in most changes over the years. Sort of like is it 71 or 72 because that is what the title says it is because of what the build date is? For me I like to know the build date because gives you a good place to start. My $0.02.


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11 hours ago, Namerow said:

Here's my list of items that changed from Series 1 to Series 2...

image.png

Wow!!! That is quite the list. Much more extensive than I expected...

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2 hours ago, Patcon said:

Wow!!! That is quite the list. Much more extensive than I expected

I am an incurable keeper of notes and lists.  When I bought my 70 Z a few years back and starting researching my 'refresh-toration' project, I started to keep track of all the big and little and obscure changes that I found others had discovered over the years.  The list I've ended up with is longer than what I've seen others publish.  But I think everything on my list is verifiable.  And I may have missed several items, too.

Do the differences really matter?  Let the market speak, I say.

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Changes occured throughout the production of the 240Z so you really can't call it series 1,2, or 3 etc...

Mine is from a " transition period " it has many series 1 features, but also what guys call here a series 2 Z emblem on the side pillar instead of the 240z badge.

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Very nice list.  Somewhat vague.  Missing many things like brake rotors and front brake dust shields.  Clear hatch glass without demister lines.  I must have a Series 0, then.

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  • Haha 2

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28 minutes ago, w3wilkes said:

Didn't the rear window defroster lines change from vertical to horizontal too? 

They went from none to vertical to horizontal.

Chuck

 

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Ok, here we go...

Antenna wire through the chassis was a smaller diameter on Z's up to (2744 and 3798 are my samples) than I've seen in later cars

Front bumper on 2744 mounts with a single M10 stud on each side, rather than the two on later 240's. The mount brackets are correspondingly different and made of lighter gauge steel than the later ones.

240 Gas tanks on the Canadian UA models have only two vent lines. The floor of the hatch then does not have a steel pass through tube for the left side, just a rubber plub. They also have no evap tank, hard vent line to the front, no "flow guide valve". Which also means the block vent tube does not have the little extra knipple, and the big end of the PVC hose is unique too.  And the air cleaner may not have the nipple that attaches to the flow guide valve outlet. Not sure about that one, I don't have the original box on 2744 or 3798. 

Horn mounts. One 3798, there is a 3 sided retangular bracket welded to the lower rad support that sticks out about 3/4 inch that both horns mount to. On 2744, these brackets are absent and you have the usual (in my experience) two M8 bolts that go directly into the lower rad support through the two horn bracket holes. Never seen these sticking out - brackets before. They are factory. As if there was something behind them that had to get clearance. Factory turbo intercooler?  ;) The car was not an automatic.

The change of where the rear brake proportion valve is located and all the tubing and tubing support bracket changes that go along with that

Gas caps

Brake master cylinders. Early had the Front reservoir in the front, with associated changes to the hard lines below.

Gas pedal rod in foot well with extra clevis-y thing on top for throttle control cable found on early ones.

Different style J-hook on the throttle actuation mechanism.

Different bell crank design early to late

Hoods. Early one with no holes either side of the latch. Also difference in how hood skin is wrapped around the top corners.

Inspection lid catch changes

someone else take over, I'm tired....

 

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Ha!  Zkars has opened an entirely new can of worms, that being the really early Series 1 cars.  Shall we call them the Series 0.5 cars?  They deserve entirely separate consideration.  New levels of minutia beckon (and I have a list).

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I know you're just pulling our leg, but please no more "series" designations. Considering the apparently endless list of ongoing changes throughout the entire S30 line, it is not wise to attempt to draw time lines that correspond to only certain changes. I think just using the break point where the vents moved to the sail panel from the hatch to delineate the "early" and 'late' is quite enough.

Series 1A, 1B, 2, 2A, 2B, 2B or not 2B? That is the question...

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What was the last series? Because that's what my 77 is.

There were some minor changes between 77 and 78, but not enough to warrant a series change. However, with all the sheet metal redesign, there was clearly a series change between 76 and 77.

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While we are on the topic of all things "early", I've noticed an interesting feature on the two early HLS30 UA's that I've had my hands on. The topic is a rear sway bar. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I wasn't aware of a factory rear sway bars prior to the 260's. But on both 03798 and 02744 there is a rear sway bar. So what you say, after 40+ years, PO's will add all nature of performance crap, right? Well on 3798, the car had aftermarket front springs and a fatter than stock front sway bar, so I wasn't surprised to find a rear bar on it. Never gave it a second thought.

But when I peaked up the butt of 02744, and saw the EXACT same rear bar arrangement I started to wonder. What are the chances of this? Was Nissan Canada adding rear bars? 

These bars are the style where the bar mounts to the transverse link uprights behind the diff, rather than the stock 260 and later bars that mount ahead of the diff on a frame box member.

IMG_1790.JPG

As you can see, this style requires that you replace the uprights with the wider ones with wings that accept the bar bushing mounts.

So my sample of two isn't exactly statistically re-assuring. But what I notice is that all the components have exactly the same age related corrosion and patina. That is, if these bars were added by owners, they were added very soon after purchase. 

Has anyone else seen this style of rear bar on Z with VIN's around the 1000-5000 mark, especially Canadian spec cars?

I just had a thought. When I get the rear suspension out today, I'm going to look at the nuts and bolts that mount those bushings. If they are factory, they will be quite recognizably metric and JIS standard. If they are SAE or metric but hardware store variety, then I have my answer. The style of the bushing cap can also be compared to the front sway bar caps to again compare to factory components.

IMG_1792.JPG

IMG_1793.JPG

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16 minutes ago, zKars said:

While we are on the topic of all things "early", I've noticed an interesting feature on the two early HLS30 UA's that I've had my hands on. The topic is a rear sway bar. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I wasn't aware of a factory rear sway bars prior to the 260's. But on both 03798 and 02744 there is a rear sway bar. So what you say, after 40+ years, PO's will add all nature of performance crap, right? Well on 3798, the car had aftermarket front springs and a fatter than stock front sway bar, so I wasn't surprised to find a rear bar on it. Never gave it a second thought.

But when I peaked up the butt of 02744, and saw the EXACT same rear bar arrangement I started to wonder. What are the chances of this? Was Nissan Canada adding rear bars?

That style of rear ARB/'Sway Bar' was nothing to do with Nissan. 

But of course, Nissan did design and engineer rear ARBs for S30-series Zs right from the beginning of production. They just were not fitted to cars sold in the North American market. 

It's yet another example of why the 'Series One' and 'Series Two' monikers are all but meaningless when it comes to detail differences on the S30-series Z. 

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I know, I know, I'm just stirring the pot and making people think about crazy issues like this and how to work through them. 

Keep buggin' about the whole Series thing. We'll learn sooner or later.

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Topic:  Relevance and usage of 'Series 1' vs. 'Series 2' vs. 'Series 3' definitions  --- Jaguar E-Type vs. Nissan/Datsun S30.  Discuss.

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20 minutes ago, wheee! said:

I have a series 2, 280z (early 76) LOL

Oh you're really asking for it! 

Listen, this only got started because humans like to have names for things, and we are intrinsically lazy. The big exterior obvious differences with cars that do or do not have the hatch vents, pillar vents, vertical def. glass, original console, and the big perceved value, rarity and coolness jump between "early" and "late" 240's that have these big obvious differences,  required our stupid human minds to create a simple way of expressing ourselves when we wanted to say "the cars with the hatch vents, vertical lines, original console" but since we're lazy decided on "Series 1". I'm surprised no one has claimed to be the first to use the term. Tweren't me. 

Then things got crazy when there were so many other changes, some small, some big, that happened as the cars evolved and individual country laws evolved that required the cars to evolve in unique ways across the globe, as well as Nissan deciding to add value with more features and power. As we've discussed there are likely 7000 small and large incremental changes most of which do NOT constitute any reason to give something a new name.

I'm happy if I only ever hear these terms to give us clear and simple names that we can use for discussion.  S1 240, S2 240, 260, and 280. Hell, just use the year.  I have a 70.  I have a 71.  then if anyone cares, tell them if you have vert def glass or a late console. It is impractical to arbitrarily decide what specific changes constitute adding a another number to the series series. 

Frankly the more I think about it, its really all about making everyone think your car is better than theirs just cause it has all that early stuff or is special.  That's why I'm busy sharing all the cool unique stuff about 3798 and 2744 cause they're Canadian and have unique stuff AND they're early, AND I found two of them! Na Na Na booboo.  I don't spend hardly any time telling you about all the stuff on my 73. (Unless I'm trying to sell it, then look out!) Damn it, humans are crazy beings. 

Edited by zKars
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