TomoHawk

Vintage Racing or Sportscar Books

32 posts in this topic

ID: 26   Posted

Realistically Alan it was the S30 rather than any later Z models which I'm confident were a superior design to the 911 of that time. What happened in the US with the S30 was ground breaking for Nissan and  it showed that no Euro designed production car could match it. Later on it was different, Nissan moved towards the GT market and Porsche got their act together and put all their effort into making cars that could win races. In that scenario it's obvious that even an average race orientated design would always beat a semi luxury GT design so I can't see anything to get excited about there on behalf of Porsche.

Nothing that has happened since gives me any reason to change my mind, the S30 is a superior car to Porsche's offerings at the time. As for now the GTR is a joke, why a company would virtually abandon it's proven line and virtually emasculate it in favour of a fat exercise in over tech has me beat.

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ID: 27   Posted

2 hours ago, 260DET said:

Realistically Alan it was the S30 rather than any later Z models which I'm confident were a superior design to the 911 of that time. What happened in the US with the S30 was ground breaking for Nissan and  it showed that no Euro designed production car could match it. Later on it was different, Nissan moved towards the GT market and Porsche got their act together and put all their effort into making cars that could win races. In that scenario it's obvious that even an average race orientated design would always beat a semi luxury GT design so I can't see anything to get excited about there on behalf of Porsche.

Nothing that has happened since gives me any reason to change my mind, the S30 is a superior car to Porsche's offerings at the time. As for now the GTR is a joke, why a company would virtually abandon it's proven line and virtually emasculate it in favour of a fat exercise in over tech has me beat.

"...no Euro designed production car could match it." In what terms? You state "superior design", but what does that mean? What exactly was superior? I'm honestly wondering if you have come into close contact with any of Porsche's premium models of the period? I'm thinking 911S, 911T/R, 911R, 911S/T, 911RS 2.7 Carrera, 911 RSR 2.8 (how about the IROC RSRs?), 911 RS 3.0, 911 RSR 3.0 Carrera? That list takes us up to the end of 1974, when the S30-series Zs being sold in North America were still being offered with a choice of 4 speed manual or Automatic transmissions (FFS!). Porsche's stock-in-trade was making and selling sports cars, racing them and winning. They out-engineered, out-homologated and out-raced their opposition because they focused pretty much solely on doing so. You might well believe the S30-series Z is "a superior car to Porsche's offerings at the time", but I don't see any evidence whatsoever to support the belief. I guess a world that has space for Creationists has to have space for other kinds of fantasy too.

 

 

By the way, I'm still nonplussed by the following statement: "...the US development of the racing Z covering S30 to Z31. .....those race cars were just the best and far superior to anything else in the world concerning production sports cars at that time." ...as you don't appear to have answered my repeated questions as to what specific cars it refers to. Considering you have now refined your claim to refer specifically to the S30-series Z I reckon it should now be easier to answer, no? So, a racing Z "production sports car" developed in the US that was "the best and far superior to anything else in the world"          at the time. What specific car, please?

You won't find many more loyal advocates for the S30-series Z than me, but I'm a realist who has been watching Porsches race from the late 1960s (yes, before the S30-series Z existed). To acknowledge Porsche's historic success in their chosen field - specialising in sports/GT cars - is not to diminish Nissan's excellent achievement in creating the S30-series Z. Two very different companies with quite different product ranges and philosophies. Being loyal to one should not make you blind to the merits of the other.  

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ID: 28   Posted

The BSR team approach was to enter sprint and short duration races. You got the same number of points for winning a 12 hour endurance race as say a 30-60 minute race but the car set up (structurally) was different enough that by the end of the year drivers were beat up in the firmer and more rigid Porsches which were required to run all the race venues.

I suspect that a different approach in how the cars were built would have resulted in more wins for Porsche.

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ID: 29   Posted

1 hour ago, gnosez said:

The BSR team approach was to enter sprint and short duration races. You got the same number of points for winning a 12 hour endurance race as say a 30-60 minute race but the car set up (structurally) was different enough that by the end of the year drivers were beat up in the firmer and more rigid Porsches which were required to run all the race venues.

I suspect that a different approach in how the cars were built would have resulted in more wins for Porsche.

Interesting, but a more than slightly non-sequitur post considering what went before it. What series, what races, what years even? I've been trying to elicit an answer regarding some cars that were - allegedly -  "...just the best and far superior to anything else in the world concerning production sports cars at that time." So far no specifics...

Meanwhile, as I have already pointed out, what manufacturer totally dominated the FIA International Cup for GT Cars during the period when the S30-series Z was being sold? Answer: Porsche.

I have mucho respect for the likes of BRE and BSR, but they largely concentrated on national series races. However much we admire the engineering of their cars we can't compare them like-for-like with Porsche's best. Sure they punched above their weight some of the time, but they were not comparable to the might of a full fat factory effort that was sending cars all over the world to race and had a fleet of specialised homologation models to sell in their showrooms.    

 

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ID: 30   Posted

Admonishment accepted. Too little time and way too much to do right now.The races would have been from 72 through 83 with the GTU 1975 Zs with 15 inch rear rims a standout. CP ran with A and B Production cars.  AlI in the US or Canada. 

Bob saw what he considered a weakness and built his car accordingly. It didn't hurt that he had Posey, Newman and Fitzgerald driving them.

Porsche was a better car, hands down, no quarrels from me. Had I had twice the amount the 260 cost I would have gotten a 911 instead.Many people didn't like the handling issues of a rear engine car but if you started out with Beetles and Corvairs, a 911 was a dream come true, just don't lift in the corners.

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ID: 31   Posted

Well Alan I could spend hours trawling through race results and no doubt if I wanted to could come up with statistics to support my claims. But that's not going to happen. To elaborate on my S30 claims though, because they are of interest, my point is that at the time like equipped for like the S30 was a superior design. Basically to beat a S30 the Porsche required more power/bigger brakes/wider tyres, it always had to have a add on advantage. The inferiority of the Porsche design is easily illustrated  on wet roads, maybe the very best specialist drivers could handle them but it's obvious the other 99.5% can't. If you don't  understand that then perhaps you should spend more time actually following and examining the performance of various cars instead of just relying on statistics which can be selected anyway.

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ID: 32   Posted

1 hour ago, 260DET said:

Well Alan I could spend hours trawling through race results and no doubt if I wanted to could come up with statistics to support my claims. But that's not going to happen. To elaborate on my S30 claims though, because they are of interest, my point is that at the time like equipped for like the S30 was a superior design. Basically to beat a S30 the Porsche required more power/bigger brakes/wider tyres, it always had to have a add on advantage. The inferiority of the Porsche design is easily illustrated  on wet roads, maybe the very best specialist drivers could handle them but it's obvious the other 99.5% can't. If you don't  understand that then perhaps you should spend more time actually following and examining the performance of various cars instead of just relying on statistics which can be selected anyway.

Certainly don't want you to go to the trouble of coming up with any race results or statistics to back up your claims. Heaven forfend... 

But I'm still not clear as to which cars you are referring to? In reference to the lines I bolded above, you seem to be saying that S30-series Zs were raced in *stock specification* against modified Porsches? Where and when, please? I think it's nonsense.

Porsche simply out-homologated the likes of Nissan during the period that the S30-series Z was current. They created cars like the aforementioned models (911S, 911T/R, 911R, 911S/T, 911RS 2.7 Carrera, 911 RSR 2.8, 911 RS 3.0, 911 RSR 3.0 Carrera) which could be purchased from a showroom and either driven on the road and/or on the race track, with factory support in readily available data and homologated, race legal competition parts. Nissan were not even trying to compete with that. It simply was not on their radar. They took inspiration from the 911R for the 432R (two cars of which you'll find no more enthusiastic fan than me) but the 432R was an exercise in domestic race homologation for JAF sanctioned events and it was never intended for export. Nissan didn't bother with FIA homologation for the 432 or 432R, their most sporting showroom-stock models of S30-series Z. 

I have been "following and examining the performance of various cars" from the late 1960s until now. In a previous post I mentioned that I was present at Le Mans as an 8-year old kid in June 1970 when Porsche took their first outright win at the event with the 917. I watched a Porsche 914/6 win the 2 litre GT class and a Porsche 911S win the 2.5 litre GT class in the same race. It made a big impression on me. I think I'm pretty well informed about the S30-series Z's race history (yes, including quite a lot of those pesky statistics) so I'm all ears if you can tell me something new. What have you got?      

 

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