240260280

L24 Battles Six S20's. Guess who wins?

43 posts in this topic

4 minutes ago, grannyknot said:

I have never said the 432 is sh*t and I never would, that is just you overstating things again. But the 432 is not special either, maybe a notch above average. I was convinced of that before I read the the first post of this thread and just as convinced of it now, although the knowledge of that win for the for the L24 is a tasty little cherry.

I know you want believe the 432 was/is extraordinary and you desperately want everyone else to believe that too, but the fact that you seem to be so afraid of is out and all anyone has to do is   READ   THE   NUMBERS.  Those numbers tell the real story, just a notch above average.

Blue, great detective work again, apologies for cluttering up your thread.

 

Newsflash for Grannyknot: The race in question was won by a 432-R pretending to be a 240Z so that it didn't get disqualified. You seem to have overlooked the fact that L24-engined cars weren't around to take part in the first ever race contested by an S30-series Z, or the first race won by an S30-series Z (READ THE NUMBERS). If you think you knew better you could pop back to 1969 and tell Nissan just how silly they were being putting Murayama's precious engine into their new American Sports Car as it would only lead to tears and confusion. 

And really, if the first post in this thread convinced you of anything it only goes to show that you didn't know enough to come to a view in the first place.

The facts don't belong to me, and whatever I say about the 432/432-R won't change what they were, what they were homologated to achieve, what they did actually achieve in period and what they mean in context today. It's a key part of the S30-series Z story, despite the efforts of people like yourself who seem to want to diminish it for some unknown reason? What's that all about, really? Isn't it just the fact that you don't like the usual messenger?

How about you pop up on one of Kats' threads and tell him his 432 is "not special"...? See how that pans out for you. My prediction is that you might find a few people to 'Like This' but not a lot else will happen. Don't worry though, you're not alone as you have a fantasy conspirator in my parallel universe Porsche thread. He's busy telling everyone that the Porsche 911R (Nissan's reference point for the 432-R) was also "not special", with similar reaction... 

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HS30-H, you're like the Gregory House of Z car forums.  What you lack in bedside manner, you more than make up for in expertise, haha.  Thanks for the information dump :)

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On 1/15/2017 at 10:31 PM, 240260280 said:

If someone could help better translate this then it could improve the accuracy.

 

確認できた事で一定の成果を収めたレースと見る事ができた。 この結果を受けZ432の開発は急テンポで

進められると考えられていたが わずか半年後の富士1000kmにはダットサンスポーツ240Zが登場。

4バルブDOHCの2リッターではなく2バルブSOHCの2.4リッターが選ばれた形だ。 R380の直系の

S20型ファンにとっては落胆を隠せない出来事だったが たまたまシリーズの選択肢に2.4Lエンジンを

持っていたフェアレディZならではの結果である。 「排気量が同じなら当然S20型を選ぶ事になるがL24型が

持つ400ccの排気量差は大きかったね。 トルクの絶対値が大きく しかも中速域からトルクがあるからL24型

の方がレースに向いていた」とは この年から日産に戻った長谷見昌弘。 「まったく他の車両がいない状態で

コースを回るのなら当時のS20型とL24型ではそれほど差は無かったと思うが混戦の中で常にラインを変えて

走らなければならない実戦ではトルク型のL24型エンジンは大きな武器になった」と言う。 L型エンジンを

使う240Zにはもうひとつ大きなメリットがあった。 メカニズムがシンプルだったためメンテナンスやチューニングの

作業に関してS20型のような高度な技術(といってもレース用であるためそれなりのレベルは必要だが)を

必要とせず チューナー単位で運用する事が可能なエンジンだったのである。 GT-Rが現役を退いた後

プライベーターに240Zが支持された理由はこうした点にあり 70年代のモータースポーツを支える貴重な

戦闘力となっていた。 240Zの開発に終始関わってきた長谷見昌弘が最後に興味深いコメントを残してくれた。

「実を言えばZはあまりボディ剛性が高くなかった。ボディ剛性という点ではGT-Rのハードトップボディの方が

良かった」Zの話をするべきなのだがGT-Rのハードトップボディがレーシングユースまで見越したものだった

ことには改めて感心させられる。 「レースの日産」の呼び名はやはり伊達ではない事を思い知らされる。

この時代で言えば特に旧プリンス系の人たちだが ここから十数年を経てR32GT-Rに繋がっていくのだから

やはり敬服せざるを得ない。

一端表立った活動を控える70年代の中後半はその存在は希薄だったと解釈できるのだが プライベーターによる

モタースポーツ活動の灯を絶やさぬようにその下地作りを行ったという点では日産ワークスが行った240Zの

開発・熟成作業は非常に大きな意味を持っていたのである。

Here's the translation:

I was able to see it as a race that achieved certain results by being able to confirm it. Based on this result, the development of Z432 is in a steady tempo

Although it was thought to be advanced, Datsun Sports 240Z appeared in Fuji 1000 km just six months later.

Not a 2 liter of 4 valve DOHC but 2.4 liter of 2 valve SOHC was chosen. Direct line of R380

For S20 type fans, it was an event that can not hide disappointment, but happened to be a series option, 2.4L engine

It is a result unique to Fairlady Z which I had. "If the displacement is the same, it will obviously choose the S20 type, but the L24 type

The difference in displacement of 400 cc that you have is great. Since the absolute value of the torque is large and there is torque from the medium speed range, L24

It was more suitable for racing, "said Masahiro Haseyami who returned to Nissan from this year. "With no other vehicles at all

If I go around the course I think that there was not much difference between the S20 type and the L24 type at the time but always changing the line in the midst of battle

Torque type L24 type engine became a big weapon in the actual battle to run. " L type engine

There is another great merit in the 240 Z to use. Because the mechanism was simple, maintenance and tuning

With regard to work on advanced technology like S20 type (although it is for racing reasonable level is necessary)

It was an engine that can be operated on a tuner basis without needing it. After GT-R retires from active service

The reason why 240 Z was supported by the private sector is that it is precious in this respect that supports the motor sports of the 70's

It was a fighting power. Masahiro Haseyami, who has been involved in the development of the 240Z for the last time, left us an interesting comment at the end.

"To tell the truth, Z was not very high in body rigidity, and in terms of body rigidity, the hard top body of GT-R

It should be good to talk about Z, but the hard top body of GT-R was anticipating racing youth

I am impressed again. The name of "Nissan of the race" is noticed that it is not Date as well.

Speaking of this era, people of the former Prince family, especially since it will lead to R32 GT-R after ten years from here

You can not but admire it.

In the latter half of the 1970s which refrains from expressive activities, it can be interpreted that its existence was sparse, but it depends on private

In terms of making the foundation so as not to stop the lamps of the motorsport activities, Nissan Works made the 240 Z

The development and aging work had a very significant meaning.

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Hey everyone. Thanks Alan for introducing me to this forum. 

What Alan said about the home prepped cars is very interesting. I was recently in a conversation with a man who's father raced a home built Z. His racing career ended like Sakurais. 
Interesting to think about that at the time a stock 432 demanded a much higher price than a standard L equipped Z. Now the men building these cars at home did not always have the budget to race with 432s. Some of the L series cars were built on a very low specs with low budget that barely made the cut. Where as factory cars were built with no holds barred. Even though these cars were built for the same category where they really built to the same level? 


Personally I think you should not base the success of a car on a single race. Nor the legacy they leave behind due to it. Racers have bad days and good days. Just like how the Ferrari had a 1st, 2nd, 3rd finish at Daytona with the P4's during a time when they were not considered a main competitor. Does this make the P4 a good car? Not really. They never achieved the same wins that they did in 67 ever again. Respect the car for what it is. Winner or looser. 

Unfortunately we will never know which is the "better" engine but at least it allows us to have conversations like this hah. 


 

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5 hours ago, Mike said:

Here's the translation:

 

Thanks for the effort Mike, but machine translation of Japanese to English is still in the stone age when it comes down to stuff like this and the results are proof of that.

As I pointed out before, that's a personal - one man - blog. The subject requires much deeper research from wider sources in order to be properly understood. 

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Ultimately an L24 engine won it's first race, which was a long endurance race on a hot day.

It proved itself with the excellent support of the Oppama Team's effort to prepare the car and engine along with the benefit of good driving and good luck during the long race.

It very interesting to also know the rivalry between the two Nissan plants because this certainly raised the stakes and will shed light on all of the races during the period when the L24 debuted.

All L24 owners should be proud of their engine's racing history.

 

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More content, photos, and revisions/corrections to the first post.

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5 hours ago, 240260280 said:

Ultimately an L24 engine won it's first race...

So, you think this was the L24's first race...?

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So far. Nothing absolute in this world.

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14 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

So far. Nothing absolute in this world.

You've gone off half-cocked. You started out with a certain premise, but had little to no understanding of the context surrounding the race in question or the bigger scenario behind it. Fail.

I think you need to do a LOT more in-depth research before trying the same trick again.

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ID: 36   Posted (edited)

I am doing the best I can.  It seems to be of interest to others as well. There is very little Japanese racing content on this site so I am adding.

You are most welcome to contribute information to improve accuracy, etc. I will amend as required.

wrt the L24's first outing.  I am basing it on the data from the JAF site.... just as I based a similar post on the 240z's first north American outings on published data on a site dedicated to racing results. 

It is all a first pass subject to revisions as new information and corrections come in.

 

 

 

Edited by 240260280

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7 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

It is all a first pass subject to revisions as new information and corrections come in.

Blue,

I suggest you try doing a bit more in-depth research before you post. Cut, paste and hope isn't going to cut it.

Your choice of thread title says it all, really. It might make the likes of Grannyknot orgasm into his popcorn but it doesn't stand up to much scrutiny.

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"It might make the likes of Grannyknot orgasm into his popcorn"

Pics or it didn't happen.  LOL

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16 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

"It might make the likes of Grannyknot orgasm into his popcorn"

Pics or it didn't happen.  LOL

As if it's not funny enough in print, read it aloud with an English accent for full impact.

I may have to subscribe to this thread just for giggles.

Dennis

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On 1/16/2017 at 9:24 AM, HS30-H said:

You'd better believe it.
Many of the guys taking part in this race were little more than enthusiastic amateurs in home-prepped cars. One of the 'six' mentioned in the thread title was a white 432 (not a 432-R) prepared, entered and driven by amateurs Isamu MIURA and Hajime SAKURAI. This is how their race ended on lap 35:

Sakurai was 20 years old. The crash ended his race, but also put him in hospital with injuries severe enough to end his working career at that point. Sakurai had been a promising amateur racer marked out as a coming talent, but never raced again...

I don't want to be insensitive to Sakurai, but by any chance is there photos of what the car looked like before the accident?

I see it has the Sports Option dual megaphone exhaust and I assume they are widened TOPY wheels?

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17 minutes ago, Gav240z said:

I don't want to be insensitive to Sakurai, but by any chance is there photos of what the car looked like before the accident?

I see it has the Sports Option dual megaphone exhaust and I assume they are widened TOPY wheels?

It's not much, but it's better than nothing:

Vob9Nv.jpg

I believe the wheels were Japanese aftermarket brand 'Jaguar' widened steels rather than TOPY.

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ID: 42   Posted (edited)

Some High-Resolution Photographs:

Interesting how the rear view mirror is flipped around and the two different fenders (one has hole for wing mirror and one does not)

 

K033700087-1200x810.jpg

 

K033710019-1200x803.jpg

Edited by 240260280

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ID: 43   Posted

On ‎16‎-‎1‎-‎2017 at 1:49 AM, HS30-H said:

Newsflash for Grannyknot: The race in question was won by a 432-R pretending to be a 240Z so that it didn't get disqualified. You seem to have overlooked the fact that L24-engined cars weren't around to take part in the first ever race contested by an S30-series Z, or the first race won by an S30-series Z (READ THE NUMBERS). If you think you knew better you could pop back to 1969 and tell Nissan just how silly they were being putting Murayama's precious engine into their new American Sports Car as it would only lead to tears and confusion. 

And really, if the first post in this thread convinced you of anything it only goes to show that you didn't know enough to come to a view in the first place.

The facts don't belong to me, and whatever I say about the 432/432-R won't change what they were, what they were homologated to achieve, what they did actually achieve in period and what they mean in context today. It's a key part of the S30-series Z story, despite the efforts of people like yourself who seem to want to diminish it for some unknown reason? What's that all about, really? Isn't it just the fact that you don't like the usual messenger?

How about you pop up on one of Kats' threads and tell him his 432 is "not special"...? See how that pans out for you. My prediction is that you might find a few people to 'Like This' but not a lot else will happen. Don't worry though, you're not alone as you have a fantasy conspirator in my parallel universe Porsche thread. He's busy telling everyone that the Porsche 911R (Nissan's reference point for the 432-R) was also "not special", with similar reaction... 

The S30 432(R) and the S20 Prince engine are surely unique in the sense of historical value and collector items.

 

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