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conedodger

Let's show vintage racing pictures. I'll start.

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I managed to to find a pic of that 81 car on my PC. Cant remember where I found this but the file was named with a date of 1990 and I distinctly remember Tom telling me the car was raced until then which led me to believe it was the 08 car.

Also attached are some more pics of Logan @ Blackhawk in '74. I wanna say greyghost took these too but I don't see them in his gallery here.

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Interesting site - I'd like to see where their source data comes from - a lot of it seems to be contributed by specators...I wonder if they had access to Daytona's actual records...

Are you seriously questioning the data at racingsportscars.com? That's a very well known and respected site, and I think the data there is very much more likely to be right than something that you added to your site because somebody might have given it to you "....off the top of his head."

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Phillip / Chris:

Reviewing our discussion:

Post #16

Perhaps the pic 26th-Z posted is not the same car, and...

To which I answered

Post #25

The car that Chris posted is a later body - more like a late 260Z/280Z. That was the car that Bob Bondurant drove. Speckman was in the same race, also sponsored by Bondurant.

I now realize that Phillip was taking about the picture Posted by Chris at Post #15. I was responding to the picture Posted by Chris at Post #21.

Sorry for the confusion on my part. So the question is: Did Bob Bell run the 00008 car as #81 at Daytona with G-nose and very large IMSA rear fender flairs.

At Post #18

Hi Chris:

..snipped...

Looking at the Site you reference - it looks like the sentence should say;

At the 1978 24 Hours of Daytona, Bob Speckman's Z was the first Z to cross the finish line, taking 26th overall and and 4th in IMSA's GT-U Class.

Sponsored by Bondurant Racing School, Bob shared driving duties with Chris Doyle and John Maffucci.

It looks like the first Z to finish a 24 hour race at Dayton was Bruce Mabrito and Jack Steel's 240Z in 1975. 26th O/A and 7th in GT-U.

At Post #21 - Chris caught that 26th finish.. and questioned it as Bondurant finished 24th in that race.

Looks like I was getting my own notes screwed up there as well. That sentence should have said:

At the 1978 24 Hours of Daytona, Bob Speckman's Z was the first Z to cross the finish line, taking 16th overall and and 4th in IMSA's GT-U Class. Bondurant finished 24th O/A and 7th in class.

Sorry for the confusion Chris. I looked at that "26th" three times and it still looked right!! Should have been 16th...

I will now go back to my e-mail archive and see if I can find the pictures of the car we think was the Bondurant car in 78, as well as review everything that Dr. Bork and Mr. Speckman wrote... might be a few clues in there as well.

FWIW,

Carl B.

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So the question is: Did Bob Bell run the 00008 car as #81 at Daytona with G-nose and very large IMSA rear fender flairs.

At the 1978 24 Hours of Daytona, Bob Speckman's Z was the first Z to cross the finish line, taking 16th overall and and 4th in IMSA's GT-U Class. Bondurant finished 24th O/A and 7th in class.

It appears Bob Bell did. Here is the Speakman entry in 1978. Carl, you also commented about the bodywork. The car I photographed was a tube frame chassis with the original unibody cut up way beyond recognition. There is nothing that can be discerned from looking at the body as it was fiberglass. I also think it should be clarified that "Bondurant" did not sponsor the cars. They were entered under the name. Big difference between entrant and sponsor.

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At Post #15 Chris posted a picture of a Z at Daytona with #81.

At Post #16 Phillip commented that he was fairly sure that was HLS30 00008.

At Post #17 Chris replies:

I didn't want to say anything, but I do remember talking to the guy because the car was a very low serial # and that would have interested me at the time because I owned 26th. "At the time" would have been 1984 and car #81 shows up on the entry list for the 24-hours of Daytona as a 240Z driven by John Saucier, Ronnie Franklin, and Chuck Gravel.

At Post #29 -after some confusion among different pictures I replied in part:

Sorry for the confusion on my part. So the question is: Did Bob Bell run the 00008 car as #81 at Daytona with G-nose and very large IMSA rear fender flairs.

At Post #31 Chris replied:

It appears Bob Bell did.

Well - actually appearances can be misleading. Looking farther... it seems that Bob Bell was a sponsor. He didn't run the car - Dave Duda did. At the time wasn't 1984 ... it was 90, 92. At least per the reference site you listed:

http://www.racingsportscars.com/driver/David-Duda-USA.html

Interesting that Mike Speakman, Bob Speakman and Jim Novotne are listed as "Most frequent co-drivers".

We also have to assume that at that time Dave Duda only had one Z, and that he did in fact modify HLS30 00008 so extensively moving it from SCCA C-Production to IMSA.

Looking back at my e-mail exchange with Mr. Speakman - he said he sold the car to Dave Duda, and as I recall, Dr. Bork bought the car from Mr. Duda. {I'll have to go review all the messages from Dr. Bork to affirm}

The car I photographed was a tube frame chassis with the original unibody cut up way beyond recognition. There is nothing that can be discerned from looking at the body as it was fiberglass.

I believe your response here - is a carry-over from my confusion as to which "picture" I was originally looking at. My comment about the body was originally about the Bondurant entry being a 260Z body... again sorry for the confusion.

Interesting about the uni-body being cut up beyond recognition however. Dr. Bork did not say that the original body had been so completely cut up.. Dr. Bork restored the car to it's as raced in the early 70's condition. It sounds like only the firewall was left .

At any rate - I'll update the Z Car Home Page when we get back from Jim's... Are you going to make it to the show in Lakeland first?... I'm going to run over and meet some of the guys there in the morning.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Edited by Carl Beck

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Here are a collection of photos that I got some time back you might have seen before the Blue and white car pictured in some of the earlier photos.

These photos from 1972 show several of the really famous Z cars, can anyone guess which two are BRE race cars?

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Here is Dan Parkinson in his #5 240Z

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A couple of 510's as well:

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A roadster or two:

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And Dan Parkinson's 280Z as of a couple of years ago:

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Edited by ron carter

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Are you missing the point again?

On this page: http://www2.zhome.com:81/History/Bork.htm

It says:

"In 1975, Bob Speakman's Z was the first Datsun 240Z to finish the 24 Hours of Daytona, finishing 4th over-all."

........which is wrong.

And why do you keep calling him "Speckman"?

Page "Updated 28 Feb. 2009", and reads:

"In 1978, Bob Speakman's Z was the first Datsun 240Z to finish the 24 Hours of Daytona, finishing 16th over-all and 4th in the GT-U Class."

So it's still wrong.....

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TrackSide Photo has tons of vintage race cars/trucks on their web site now.

See: http://Tracksidephoto.com

Remember the "BRE Datsun 510" that was on e-bay last year... and it was disputed that BRE built the car? Well here is a picture of the Baja Truck the seller ran at the Baja... Conner's efforts were pretty successful for Datsun..

Also a picture of the BRE Baja 510 that John Morton and Peter Brock ran in 1972.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Trackside Photo's shown with credits/copyright notice - and with permission.

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Page "Updated 28 Feb. 2009", and reads:

"In 1978, Bob Speakman's Z was the first Datsun 240Z to finish the 24 Hours of Daytona, finishing 16th over-all and 4th in the GT-U Class."

So it's still wrong.....

" ................ "

Would it help if somebody explained it to you?

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Let's go back to 1976 for a moment. Elliot Forbes-Robinson would take over driving duties for Bob Sharp who was injured in an accident in 1975. Bob had won the SCCA C-production national championship in '72, '73, and '75 having given it up in '74 to Walt Maas in his 260Z. Bob was campaigning a 280Z in SCCA C-production and a 240Z in IMSA Grand Touring Under 2.5 liter displacement. He was GTU champion in 1975. However eight of the eleven IMSA GTU races in 1976 went to Brad Frisselle and his 240Z. Brad drove to victory with John Morton in the Mid Ohio 6-hour and the Road Atlanta 1000k. Elliot Forbes-Robinson won only at Pocono where he finished a spectacular third overall. Here is a Datsun press release photo of the two cars from 1976. Sorry for the quality. The original documents are really old.

Brad's car showed up at a Walter Mitty race in Atlanta in 2006 and I managed to grab a few shots of it.

These are some great shots of Brad Frisselle's Z! It just happens that I live in Northern California not far from a shop that generally restores and races vintage race cars... Bruce Cannepa is known for the Porsche cars he does but I noticed on his website that he is selling the restored Frizzelle car. Interesting to note for those of you who like to argue history, Bruce claims this to be the first chassis imported to the United States. Yes? No? Let the fur fly! http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car/7313/index.html

My Porsche friends think the 914 might be Adrian Gang but no one is sure... Anyone here have access to old car numbers from the day? I am assuming based on the Kitty Litter that is Road Atlanta. What corner? Is this picture below from the 70's or from a vintage race later on?

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The Frisselle car is not the first 240Z chassis into the United States.

Although it might be tough to prove it as most likely the Vin number has been removed from the car, it was not an important aspect of the car at the time it was built, because it was a purpose built race car and with all the modifications to this car there is a good likelyhood that it is gone.

I had a chance to have dinner with Don Devendorf and John Knepp recently. Don campaigned the Frisselle car painted in his livery, and number, before he took delivery of his 280ZX. Both of these guys are extremely bright, and John in particular is very detail minded. He remembers everything. According to both of them this car was not the "first" chassis, and that the claim that it is the first chassis is total bunk...

There are all kinds of stories about this car, very few of them are correct. I wonder why Bruce thinks this is the first chassis?

Ron

Edited by ron carter

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I wonder why Bruce thinks this is the first chassis?

Ron

Hi Ron:

I wondered the same thing. In July of 2007 Lew Kinse, of Canepa Design called, as a follow-up to an e-mail I had sent earlier related to the VIN on the Frisselle Z. He ask where he could find the VIN on the chassis, as the dash and data tags were all missing. I told him where to look on the firewall, then sent a follow-up e-mail with photo's of other cars VIN's stamped into their firewall, and a brief explanation of the VIN structure etc.

He replied that he would let me know what they found, if they could remove any of the paint. I never did get an answer from him after that.

Could be that it was no longer an issue after the new owner paid for it. Nonetheless an amazing piece of SCCA and Datsun Racing History.

FWIW,

Carl B.

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Hi Carl,

It is a fantastic car, I have not seen it person, but sure would like to.

As they say, it would look better in my Garage :)

Regardless, the car is back at Canepa again, for sale, and as far as I know it has not sold. The price tag is steep, north of $325K last I heard.

In this economy not the best time to be selling these toys...

Thanks for comfirming my suspicion, no VIN, it could be any car...

I am sure some members here will look at the photos of the car and say it is a 280Z. For those out there who don't know, many racing 240Z were "modified" to look like later cars as Datsun wanted the cars racing to appear like the current cars for sale. So this is a 240Z with 280Z tail lights.

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Here's a few I recently discovered posted on a Corvette racing site (vettemod.com)...35mm enlargements taken at Road Atlanta, not sure what year...1972, 73? There were several other interesting non-Datsun images there as well, F5000, Can-Am, David Hobbs, Donohue, etc.

–Mark Atkinson

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Would it help if somebody explained it to you?

I would certainly be interested in any evidence you might have to support your point if you could find a tone that is a bit more, shall we say - respectful? Thanks in advance for that effort.

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I would certainly be interested in any evidence you might have to support your point..........

It has already been pointed out that there were 240Zs that finished the race in 1975 ( the Mabrito & Steel car in a pretty good 26th O/A and 8th in GT-U at 420 laps, and the Buzbee, Ross & Frates car 32nd O/A and 9th in GT-U), and 1976 ( Frates, Ross & Buzbee again at 38th O/A and 15th in GTU at 274 laps, whilst Mabrito & Steel got a DNF with 47th O/A, 18th in GTU and 185 laps ). So why does the zhome.com page on the ex-Speakman car read that it ".... was the first Datsun 240Z to finish the 24 Hours of Daytona....."?

At the very least this is misleading, and fairly disrespectful of the efforts of the '75 and '76 entrants - which were arguably blazing a trail for others to follow. That 16th place O/A in 1978 was a fine achievement, but surely everybody can see that the zhome.com page is now worded misleadingly after previously simply being........ wrong?

......if you could find a tone that is a bit more, shall we say - respectful? Thanks in advance for that effort.

Well, respect is a two-way street, isn't it? I think I'm giving around the same amount of respect as I'm being given, to be honest. It's not a two-way dialogue, is it?

Unless you spotted a post that I can't see?

Further back in this thread you'll see Carl Beck calling into question the data published on racingsportscars.com ( a well-researched and well-respected site ) when it is his own site that carries the errors in question. That page in question wrong for over seven years - misleading people that I have personally had to correct - and then it is "updated" rather than simply being corrected.......

I guess you must see it all quite differently.

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It has already been pointed out that there were 240Zs that finished the race in 1975 ( the Mabrito & Steel car in a pretty good 26th O/A and 8th in GT-U at 420 laps, and the Buzbee, Ross & Frates car 32nd O/A and 9th in GT-U), and 1976 ( Frates, Ross & Buzbee again at 38th O/A and 15th in GTU at 274 laps, whilst Mabrito & Steel got a DNF with 47th O/A, 18th in GTU and 185 laps ). So why does the zhome.com page on the ex-Speakman car read that it ".... was the first Datsun 240Z to finish the 24 Hours of Daytona....."?

At the very least this is misleading, and fairly disrespectful of the efforts of the '75 and '76 entrants - which were arguably blazing a trail for others to follow. That 16th place O/A in 1978 was a fine achievement, but surely everybody can see that the zhome.com page is now worded misleadingly after previously simply being........ wrong?

Well, respect is a two-way street, isn't it? I think I'm giving around the same amount of respect as I'm being given, to be honest. It's not a two-way dialogue, is it?

Unless you spotted a post that I can't see?

Further back in this thread you'll see Carl Beck calling into question the data published on racingsportscars.com ( a well-researched and well-respected site ) when it is his own site that carries the errors in question. That page in question wrong for over seven years - misleading people that I have personally had to correct - and then it is "updated" rather than simply being corrected.......

I guess you must see it all quite differently.

I don't see it either way. I freely admit that I do not know. But, from the start it appears you are going after Carl as if he isn't an authority. On that I do have an opinion. I just think you would get a little further in your quest for truth if you approach the people who disagree with you in a little, shall we say, gentler approach.

My life is dedicated to exposing the differences in cultures and I do know that the English argue differently. But it may help given the lack of dimension we have here on internet forum if you first state your premise as a question. Isn't it true that...? And then support your premise with cited sources. In academia we really have little respect for websites in general. They are seldom peer reviewed and often contain revisionist ideas. Let's start with that. Your referenced website is no better than ZHome in my eyes and perhaps not as good in that I have known of Carl Beck for a decade and I have seen him seek the truth as it regards the Z Car relentlessly in that time.

I have always known his mind to be open. If you know the truth and can prove it, or at least can cloud the truth as he knows it, I am sure he would be open. If you find a more respectful tone... Again, thanks for your effort in that regard...

I am not an arbitrator. Address yourself to Carl. However, it may already be too late...

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'conedodger',

Thanks for your advice. Nice of "Academia" to come and pay me a personal visit, and useful to know that "....the English argue differently" when posting on what is actually an international forum.

I'm afraid I shall be sticking with my opinion ( obviously differing from yours ), and I think that's healthy as far as this forum goes. Otherwise we might as well rename it the 'Carl Beck Fan Club' and let it become the replacement for his dearly departed Mailing List, in which he was able to edit all posts before they even hit the screen.

I see you are damning the racingsportscars.com site too. Quite extraordinary. You and Mr B. could be two peas in a pod. If the data on the ex-Speakman car at zhome.com was originally right, then why has it now been "updated"? And if what is written on that page now ( implying that the Doyle, Speakman & Maffucci 16th O/A finish in 1978 was the first finish for a 240Z at the Daytona 24hrs ) is correct, then please post your evidence to prove that the other cars we have mentioned don't count.

And if you have any other 'advice' for me on how to deal with your friends, then please send it to me by PM.

Thanks.

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Come on guys, Alan is right about this being an international forum, all opinion, experience, and history are welcome, and the perspective from other parts of the world are a valid and necessary part of Z history. Between them Carl and Alan have a wealth on Z information that sould not be discounted. Carl has the USA experience, Alan has the UK experience-these were two different markets handled by Nissan two different ways, please look at both and realize the value in both! Neglecting or dismissing any viewpoint means you will probably miss something. Both put diamonds in the threads, and are strong willed, thick skinned and deserving of your respect. Look at the discussions they get into and realize the tectonic action between them will bring more diamonds to the surface than any calm presentation! Read what they post and draw your own conclusions.

Will

Edited by hls30.com

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