My visit to Tabco

[Seppi72]

I suppose that one of the "joys" of living in Ohio is that I am relatively close by (~140 miles) to the two manufacturers of replacement body panels for our beloved cars: Mill Supply and Tabco. Because I've recently embarked on the rebuild of my original owner '72 and it will need a number of these parts (rockers, rear wheel arches and rear wheel housings), I have been looking at both company's Web sites and contacting them for info. I decided to get my parts from Tabco.

When I called Tabco, I spoke with Ron Stelmarski (I'm assuming that's the spelling) and he is the operations manager, at the very least. Heck, he might even be the owner as I didn't press him for his title over the phone. Ron told me they made the rear wheel arches and one of the rockers in stock. He said they could get the other parts made up in a week or so.

I turned out that I had to make a business trip to Cleveland last Thursday so I told Ron that I would stop by to pick up whatever parts he had around 4 p.m. He was very agreeable to that.

Now, first things first, Tabco's Web site IS NOT up-to-date. For one thing, they are no longer located in Chesterland, OH. They are located at 235 E. 131st Street, Cleveland, OH 44108. The local number is now 216-851-1404, but I believe the "original" toll-free number 800-782-5226 is still viable.

The Tabco building is nondescript, to say the least, and the only identifying mark is the number 235 on the main entrance door. It is across the street from a closed LTV steel plant in East Cleveland just off Exit 178 of I-90 (for anyone who wants to include it on your "sights of Cleveland" tour). It is not in the best part of town, so be certain to do this part of your sightseeing in daylight :nervous:.

When I asked, Ron said that they had been in this location for almost two years. When I said that the Web site wasn't current, he seemed only mildly surprized. Obviously, drop-ins aren't a big part of Tabco's busness.

My parts, two wheel arches and one rocker were waiting for me in the office. When I asked Ron for a tour, he was happy to oblige but he demurred when I asked about taking photos, saying that they still had some "organizing" to do in the building and it would be better looking "the next time you're here." Undoubtedly...

Tabco appears to have one metal stamping machine (it wasn't runing at the time) and it must have pretty big platens (I didn't get close enough to look really good) because there were some fender stampings (60s era Chrysler, Ron said) stacked on a pallet on the floor that looked to be at least 6 feet long. I've worked in plastics molding, so I know something about presses and, from 25 feet away, the one I saw didn't look capable of handling the tooling to make something that big. Yet, there they were as big as life.

I noticed that they were in the process of producing S30 rocker panels and they had one marked OEM part sitting out that they used as a guide. They were not using it to check dimensions - in fact, I saw no evidence of QC - but rather to show them how to trim the raw stamping, drill holes and weld in nuts. However, with stamping tooling, how bad can the parts really be? Many of you have already used Tabco parts and have been happy with them, right?

The thing that really struck me, however, was how awful the safety looked to be in the stamping area. There were no guards around the press itself (I had an acquaintance 20 years ago lose a forearm and hand to such an unguarded device). I also did not see a single worker (young guys) wearing safety glasses, gloves, or work shoes. One guy was wearing ear muffs - or maybe it was his personal radio, I couldn't tell. You can imagine all the stuff going on in a metal shop, so this was something that took me aback:finger:.

Ron then took me into the wearhouse portion of the building and, as you might expect, there were rows and rows of shelves holding every sort of stamped metal part with the associated tooling sitting on the floor underneath. I asked Ron what tooling costs and he said anywhere from $5-65k per tool. That seems reasonable based on what I know from plastics.

One other thing that Ron told me is that they buy steel coil that is either rejected or made surplus by the domestic automakers and thus save money on raw materials. I assue the rejections are due to dimensional problems and not metallurgical ones. I can't imagine the latter would get out of the rolling plant.

Finally, even with all the savings that Tabco employs, the cost of parts has gone up. For the parts that I need, the current costs are:

Rockers (PN 167-40) $59.75

Wheel Arches (PN 167-51) $79.75

Wheel Housing (PN 167-53) $89.75

These are still a bit less than Mill Supply's curently shown "Web prices." I hope to get into that shop some time soon (unless someone else has been there - done that and wants to talk about it here).

[geezer]

After many failed attempts to buy stampings from Tabco direct, I was left no alternative but to deal with Mill Supply. Only downside I suppose was slightly higher prices. This turned into a waiting game because all Z stampings sold by Mill Supply are produced by Tabco. It was more than 6 months before I recieved email confirmation of the parts availability. Don't get me wrong...I am grateful someone is still punching out these pieces, even if they leave a lot to be desired. I would not recommend that someone without metal working experience attempt to fit these parts. They are close but lack the superior sharpness of definition that you get from genuine Nissan stampings. Regardless of who the end supplier is, I believe Tabco is the only outfit producing the stampings today. Bob, that explains alot. A move to a new facility would have put Tabco behind schedule and caused me a 6 month wait. Anyhow, the parts are usable and the only game in town, unless you can track down NOS. Thanks for the report on your tour, it is always interesting to get the perspective of someone who has seen it first hand.

[Seppi72]

Geezer:

In my investigation phase, I had come to wonder if one company wasn't just supplying the other. After all, it really makes very little sense for two companies (and only perhaps 20 miles apart) to make the exact same offering of parts for such "low volume" markets as the S30.

When I mentioned Mill Supply to Ron Stelmarski, he did say something to the effect that it was kind of "cute" that they "adopted" Tabco's part numerology. When I get back in contact with Ron, I'll ask him more directly about Tabco and Mill Supply's relationship - after he's made and shipped my remaining parts, that is .

[geezer]

Bob, all the stampings I recieved from Mill Supply came complete with Tabco stickers on them. I was told by the fellow taking the phone order that the parts were made by Tabco and they were having difficulty getting certain stampings...hence the long wait. I don't think Mill Supply does any manufacturing. I may be wrong but I think they only operate a retail outlet. All I can say is, prepare for a bit of a wait for at least some of these parts.

[JimmyZ]

Just curious. What material are the stamps made of and how thick are they? How much would you say they weigh? (For something the size of a quarter panel stamp.

Maybe we could facilitate the creation of some Z parts by making a trip with a forklift and U-haul.

[Seppi72]

Jim:

It occurred to me that because the ZCCA convention is going to be in Cleveland this fall that Tabco would be a proper addition to it somehow. I've contacted the ZACO organizers and given them this thought. I also talked to Ron at Tabco, telling him what a good marketing opportunity this would be, and gave him the convention URL. I hope they work something out.

The parts I took home last week seem to be at least as thick as the OE metal. I recall that Ron said they used either 18 or 19 guage steel. I'll take some pix tonight and weigh and measure the parts. I'll post the info on this thread tomorrow.

[Seppi72]

I took my Mitutoyo micrometer to the wheel arches and rocker panels yesterday.

I measured the wheel arches at about a 0.93 mm average thickness, which translates to 366 mils. Depending on which conversion table I want to believe, that looks to have been stamped from 20 gauge sheet.

For the rocker panel, I got about a 1.00 mm average thickness (394 mils). This looks to have been stamped from 19 gauge sheet.

Of course, I could only measure about an inch away from any edge and I had to choose flat regions because the mike has flat anvils. Both parts could have been stamped from 19 gauge. I don't know how much the metal thins during the process. The one thing I do know is that it didn't get any thicker:)

[JimmyZ]

Oops.

I actually meant the tooling for making the quarter panels etc. I'm very curious what materials they use and if the molds for are sectional. For instance, The quarter panel molds for our cars can't possibly made in a single action. I'd imagine they are made in several steps. This is something I'd like to see on the "How it's made" show. It would also be nice if the creation of such tooling were in the abilities of those of us into machining and casting.

I can't imagine something such as the QP arch can be formed by stamping. One would think it would be a rolled part.

It's good to know that the panels aren't terribly thin like the stuff used on modern throwaway asian cars.

Jim

Edited August 5, 2008 by JimmyZ

[geezer]

It would be interesting to see the process used to punch these parts out. On some pieces I noticed evidence of hand forming also, indicating the equipment is most likely very old and additional work is needed for final shaping. I mentioned in an earlier post, the difference in the crispness of detail from a genuine Nissan piece. It's doubtful anyone else would ever make the capital investment to compete for such a small market. We are just lucky to still have an outfit such as Tabco and guys like Charlie Osborne and John from Baddog. Now if we could get someone to replicate pieces to take care of the rusted areas such as lower rear hatch opening, area of battery tray & cowl etc. it would help save a few more Zs.

[JimmyZ]

I agree geezer. We are lucky to have people making parts. We just need more.

To me, a full quarter panel is most important. Snagging one off a JY Z or patching with some half QP isn't good enough for me. One of my friends has a '70 which was tatooed in the rear and may not be put back on the road again for lack of rear panels.

I imagine they had several jigs with various rolling wheels for making bends in the QP's. (Nissan) The crisp shapes you describe could only be made by a multi step process using jigs built specifically for the panel. (In my limited knowlege of sheet metal forming) A full QP jig would have to be sectional or have partial duplicates for secondary forming operations.

I'd be game for taking a swing at making one if I knew a little more of what was involved. Perhaps I could just take it to the lake and do some explosive forming. (fishing w/ M-80) I'd also be willing to make a built up mold out of 1/4" plate if I knew someone with a press suitable for stamping a QP.

As for the inner fenderwells one might be able to use a forklift and some heavy concrete molds to form those simple shapes? A donor fenderwell could be coated with form release. The design would probably need some tweaking to take springback into account.

Musings of Jim's demented mind...

Edited August 7, 2008 by JimmyZ