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Advice on using a Glaze Breaker


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#1
240ZMan

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I finally found a place to rent a berry glaze breaker and I need some advice on the best way to use it. The Datsun Engine Rebuild book doesn't discuss this. My current thoughts are to use my Makita drill on its slower speed range (0-200 rpm). I understand I should go up and down in the bore to try to generate a cross hatching pattern.

My question is roughly how long should this take (1 minute, 5 minutes, more?) for each cylinder? Should I use it dry, or have some engine oil on the bores? How careful do I need to be to not take too much material off? I realize this is mostly a function of the condition of my block, but I'd appreciate any advice in advance. This is definitely one of those jobs I only want to do once :)
Daniel
'73 240Z
Castle Rock, CO

#2
ChrisA

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Any time you install new piston rings you need to hone the cylinder walls to break the glaze in order to allow the new rings to wear in and seat properly to minimize oil consumption. The hone has a flexible drive shaft and is typically driven with a 3/8" electric hand drill at speed under 1000 rpm. A pro shop might use a hone in a drill press to run it as straight as possible and to have better control over axial motion to produce a cross hatch pattern on the cylinder wall.

If the cylinder is fairly clean and not significantly scratched you could use a flex hone (often called a ball hone) to break the glaze and remove minimal material. These are quick and easy to use but need to have a fairly close match to the bore size. If it's smaller than the bore it won't work. If it's much larger than the bore it will be difficult to keep the balls inside the cylinder with close approach to the ends of the bore. If you have more than one bore size to work with you need multiple tools. If the cylinder wall is slightly scratched, and you need to remove a little more material to get it to clean up, then the flex hone is not the best tool. It can remove material more in the middle of the bore and less at the ends, therefore causing the bore to be less straight.

Use it almost dry or the balls will clog, you can use a little WD-40 as lubricant that's my own experience talking.

The articulated three stone hone is a more universal cylinder tool. This may have a much greater working range to work with small bore and large bore engines, so you only need one hone. It should also help to keep a more constant bore size (straighter cylinder) when removing a little more material to clean up a slightly scratched cylinder. An abrasive hone is subject to wear as it is used, so the abrasive may need to be replaced occasionally (maybe every 30 to 50 cylinders or so). The straight stones are cheaper to replace than buying a new flex hone. If you like to use various grit grades, the straight stones are also fairly easy to change, as opposed to buying multiple flex hones.

With any honing process some of the abrasive grit wears off of the tool at the same time that fine metal powder is bring removed from the cylinder bore. This stuff is VERY bad for an engine if it is left inside. So it is best to do this honing on a completely disassembled and bare engine block, and clean it thoroughly before assembly. It is possible to hone cylinders with an engine still in the car and partially assembled. If you do this, pay special attention to keeping the grit off of the crankshaft as well as possible, and do your best to clean everything thoroughly before reassembly. It would also be a good idea to install a magnetic oil drain plug, and to drain and change the engine oil soon after initial run in

Much luck to you,
Chris
1973 240Z HLS30-156693

#3
LanceM

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I use a 3 stone hone but the process should be the same. My best results are gotten by using a 1/2" drill with a speed control to get the speed around 60 rpm or so and moving the hone rapidly through the cylinder to get a good crosshatch pattern. I've found that higer rpms make it hard to achive a good pattern as it tends to be very horizontal instead of X pattern. I also try to keep the hone well flooded with something like WD-40 to keep the stones from loading and to keep the debris out of the cylinder. Hone only until the glaze is gone and a good pattern is achieved, doing more and you risk taking the cylinder out of round or exaggerating any taper in the bore.
Lance

73 240Z, tripple webbers, 5 speed, 4 wheel disk, Einbach springs
98 BMW 540i/6

#4
240ZX

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Its interesting that you guys tend to use a lubricant on a device intended to remove material!!!? Lubricants are designed to prevent wear! Try using a solvent or a cutting type oil. You are likely getting clogging in the stones because of the lubricant......try using solvent. Just some food for thought!

#5
my_mad_z

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I was told by a mechanic that a block should be honed from both openings, i.e. from the top of the block and then the bottom of the block. Do all cylinders from the top and then turn the block over and repeat. I was also told to use kerosene and plenty of it while honing. As mentioned in previous posts, keep the up/down motion consistent and quick in order to achieve a good hatch.

I've used this method and achieved a very good hatch and have had no problems with rings bedding.

My 2c.

All the best with the rebuild.

#6
LanceM

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Its interesting that you guys tend to use a lubricant on a device intended to remove material!!!? Lubricants are designed to prevent wear! Try using a solvent or a cutting type oil. You are likely getting clogging in the stones because of the lubricant......try using solvent. Just some food for thought!


Oils come in many types and uses, cutting oils are usually 5-10W oils without additives. Something needs to be used to keep the stones from loading, a light oil does this by floating the cut particles away from the cut and the stone. I wouldn't recommend using a solvent as it is much more flammable than a light oil and there is the possibility of sparking when using the tool and the drill driving it. Ideally a steady stream of water would probably be best but standing in a puddle of water using an electric drill just doesn't sound like a real smart thing to do :) I like WD-40 because it comes in a can and is handy for spraying out the cylinder to see how things are progressing.
Lance

73 240Z, tripple webbers, 5 speed, 4 wheel disk, Einbach springs
98 BMW 540i/6

#7
Phred

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I've been an engine machinist for over twenty five years. I have seen more blocks screwed up by people trying to save a buck, and doing it at home. If you try to do this in the car, with the crank and and pan still installed. Save your time. Instead, just grab gun and shoot yourself in the foot. I've always tried to be diplomatic in my posts, but this kind of home machining is just plain stupid. Take the block to an auto machine shop and request a "ring finish" hone job. Only a few tenths of a thousanth of an inch will be removed. And it will be done with a ridgid two stone, two shoe hone. Most probably a Sunnen hone. And it will be done while flooding the hone with specific honing oil, designed to carry away the grit from the wall and stones. It also keeps the stones cutting, and not clogging up. This will tend to straighten the bore and put the proper cross hatch pattern on the cyl. wall. I can't tell you how many times people have come to me wondering why their rings didn't seat after they ball honed their cylinders at home, and then put new rings in. Were you aware that there are even different grit stones used, depending on the type of rings used? Cast iron, moly faced, chrome, steel, each type ring has a specific grit finish that allows the ring to properly seat. Even the intended use of the engine can be a determining factor in the type of cylinder finish used. Do yourself a favor. Unless you really know what your doing. Have it done professionally. Your engine will thank you.
Phred

#8
Bambikiller240

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Thanks for the advice, Phred!
Carl Stahlnecker
IZCC #8648 & CZC#791
72 240Z "Bambikiller"
Pleasanton, CA USA

#9
ChrisA

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Its interesting that you guys tend to use a lubricant on a device intended to remove material!!!? Lubricants are designed to prevent wear! Try using a solvent or a cutting type oil. You are likely getting clogging in the stones because of the lubricant......try using solvent. Just some food for thought!


When my Dad and I rebuilt his 72 Cutlass engine, we relied on the knowledge of Joe Mondello. Most folks in the Oldsmobile circles know of him. His reputation speaks for itself. If he says "use wd-40 on your ball hone" then that's good enough for me. No different than using any of the advice from this group.

No disrespect intended. Just facts you can use.

Chris
1973 240Z HLS30-156693

#10
240ZMan

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To Phred's comments, perhaps I should explain what I'm doing. This is a project to replace dished pistons with flat tops. I had to take the head off anyway to solve the coolant leak problem, and at this point I have the block out on a stand and completely dissassembled. The bottom end has about 80k miles and didn't burn oil. Compression was 155 - 175. It's a weekend car for fun, not a daily driver, and I'm not looking to get another 100k miles out of this rebuild. I'm sure I'll want to change something else before then :)

As it was explained to me, the advantage of the berry glaze breaker is that it will conform to the full range of the cylinder from top to bottom, even at the top of the piston travel where there is usually some amount of a ridge. The rigid stones are designed to finish a cylinder after it has been bored and is now perfectly straight on the sides. They will have a problem making good contact just below the ridge at the top.

FWIW, I called the machine shop that's done the work on the head and he was pretty neutral on this. He reminded me that because of the ridge I wouldn't see the cross hatching towards the top of the piston travel anyway.

Hope I don't sound like I'm trying to argue with those who have much more experience than I do, just trying to reconcile the different opinions I'm hearing.
Daniel
'73 240Z
Castle Rock, CO




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