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Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432

This is a discussion on Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432 within the Open S30 Z Discussions forums, part of the 1st Generation Z (S30) category; Hello, I renew my website a little bit including a Z432's pictures and films. Please enjoy the sound of S20 ...


  1. #1
    Registered User kats's Avatar
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    Default Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432

    Hello,

    I renew my website a little bit including a Z432's pictures and films.
    Please enjoy the sound of S20 engine,it is a natural born racer!

    kats

    here is a link,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-tachinfo.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-tach432.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-s20starting.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-rallyclock.jpg  
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
    Welcome to my web site,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903

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    Torch Wielding Villager gogriz91's Avatar
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    Those are two stunning vehicles...exceptional effort kats.
    '73 HLS30 129806 ; L-28, street cam, SUs, 5-speed, Koni's, Suspension techniques springs, swaybars, 3.90 R200 LSD

    Heavily medicated for your protection

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    Kats - I could spend hours looking at the absolute beauty and detail that goes into your projects! A second and third viewing later I notice more & more. The level of restoration is astounding! Most of us can only dream of recreating such excellent examples. Thank you for sharing your pictures & video clips. That's the first time I've heard an S20 and have never seen one in person. A real treat!

  4. #4
    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Very nice, kats. I want the sound track on my iPod.
    Enjoy the Ride
    HLS30-00026
    HLS30-00027
    http://home.earthlink.net/~cwenzel/index.html
    Go Gators
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    Absolutely superb, great job.

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    Default compare

    Thank you everyone,I am happy that you enjoyed.

    This Z432(PS30) is PS30-00088 and the engine is S20-000884.Japanese Z does not have a manufacture data tag,but we can see this car could leave the factory Jan/1970.Official data for the Japanese automobile production shows PS30-00073 is the first one for the 1970 production.

    I noticed these,
    07 Jan 1970 on the basement for the steering horn pad(actually it is 45 1,7)

    15 Nov 1969 on the back of the tach meter

    My feeling is,the basement for the steering horn pad is very close to the date when it left from the factory,I have seen other good examples.What do you every one think of it?

    My 240Z has 02 Mar 1970 on the basement for the horn pad.My 240Z has 03/70 for the door jam tag.

    I will tell you about differences & interesting features on the Z432.

    Thank you,

    kats
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-steerinb.jpg  
    Last edited by kats; 04-10-2007 at 02:31 AM.
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
    Welcome to my web site,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903

  7. #7
    Registered User kats's Avatar
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    Hi,

    pictures of the dash and tach.

    44 12 26 (26 Dec 1969) for the dash,
    15 11, 9, (15 Nov 1969) for the tach.

    kats
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-tach44.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-dsh44.jpg  
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
    Welcome to my web site,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903

  8. #8
    Her Majesty the 26th 26th-Z's Avatar
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    Kats,

    I’m going to reference some of your earlier threads so that everyone knows the history behind this conversation. These threads discuss the ink and paint date stamps on specific parts. Date codes? on fuel & evaporator tanks.

    Discover various "date",use cross-reference method

    And this thread discusses what cars and how many were produced in 1969 – early 1970.
    production number for 1969

    I’m glad to see you back with pictures and information, Kats. Your new toy looks great and I hope you bring it to Florida!
    Enjoy the Ride
    HLS30-00026
    HLS30-00027
    http://home.earthlink.net/~cwenzel/index.html
    Go Gators
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    Wowzer, thanks so much!!

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    Known Zitus carrier! hls30.com's Avatar
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    Thanks Kats!
    This is great!
    Will
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    Yup, It's Orange CoastGuardZ's Avatar
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    Thanks for the treat Kats! Loved it! I had to look twice at the picture taken at the gas station... It looked quite American... an HLS30 and a Harley (?) with extended forks. The S20 sounds beautiful

    Nate
    -Nate

    1972 Datsun 240Z #HLS30-47945 (aka: Kikka)
    2007 Nissan Frontier Crew Cab Long Bed SE 4x4 6 spd
    2005 Nissan Sentra 1.8s SE (Wife-Mobile)

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    Wow Kats! The S20 sounds as great as it looks, very healthy. I also looked at the US road test vids for the first time and enjoyed them almost as much as it looked like the guys enjoyed testing them. Thanks for sharing.
    =Enigma=
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    Car Guy
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    Thanks for sharing! That is truly one beautiful car, love what you have done to it!

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    Wow!!

    I am amazed at the quality of the restoration of the Fairlady z-432. Kats, you must truly know what you are doing to restore the car to that level of finish.

    That is the level of quality I would LIKE to have, but realise I can neither afford the time or the money to achieve it. Where do all the parts come from?Kats, you say some are restored, some are new. It is impossible for me to tell the difference.

    The Fairlady is a great credit to your standard of work. It produces a very high benchmark for the rest of us to aim for. I realise that some of the group also aim for these high ideals. Well done to you too.

    A most interesting tour of your photos Kats.

    Regards, Jack

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    Hi Kats:
    Great pictures and video's... Chris said; "your new toy".....Did you buy this Z432?


    regards,
    Carl B.

  16. #16
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    Default Z432 is

    Again, thank you everyone enjoyed watching my web site.

    What would I say if some one asked me to explain my impression of Z432 briefly?

    I would say " racing model from the factory,sexy sound ! " and "it is given many special parts" and " that is why it is heavy".

    S20 engine is about 440 LB, L24 is about 400 LB. Front section is relatively heavier than L-series model,Z432 got stiffer spring coils for all the suspension and front struts are slightly different.

    Following items are OEM parts for Z432,please enjoy seeing and paying attention to these items which NISSAN (Prince,Alan can tell much more ) put a lot of effort and cost. I list up as much as I can remember,

    Engine
    #1 S20 enigne with 3 MIKUNI carbs(it is slightly different from Skyline GTR's, oil pan,cylinder block, exhaust manifold ,etc)
    #2 nicely fabricated exhaust manifold
    #3 air cleaner box and related parts
    #4 aluminum radiator with a reservoir bottle
    #5 Transistor igniter system
    #6 electric fuel pump located near the final gear

    Other
    #1 rear suspension got sway bar
    #2 R 192 is the final gear
    #3 twin tail pipes exhaust system
    #4 Tach displays max 10000x
    #5 rally clock is standard
    #6 reclining seat mechanism is standard(this was not available for the U.S. until mid 1971)
    #7 Magnesium wheel is standard(including a spare)
    #8 432 emblem(All early emblems are casting metal,same as other S30 family)

    Jack,is your Z is Japanese Z? i.e,Fairlady-ZL?I would like to hear more

    This Z432 remains a lot of original early parts,Chris will be interested,like bonnet bumpers,red dot mirror,seat bottm side plastic guards,seat belt holders,non-small acess door for the tail light interior trim etc.

    But Mr.Moroe who did this wonderful job,put lots of OEM parts for this Z432.I did not nothing,I just talked with him a lot and I showed my intention during this restoration.

    kats
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
    Welcome to my web site,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903

  17. #17
    Registered User kats's Avatar
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    Hi Carl,
    Please do not ask me.
    I need to find good excuse for my family.BIG BIG problem

    kats
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
    Welcome to my web site,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903

  18. #18
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    Hullo Kats

    My car is a 1973 Datsun Fairlady 240Z-L, sold to an Australian lady working in Japan at the time. I have all the original Nissan documentation, including the following: Estimate, Sales Note, Purchase Order, Bill and separate Receipts for Deposit and Balance.

    The Vin is HS30 103407 and Engine # L24 185588. I believe the build date is 48 07 13 and the vehicle was "transferred" on 48 07 25. The vehicle was first registered on August 10, 1973. First Insurance is dated 48 8 9.

    Kats I know you understand the dates provided above.

    The 240Z is not original, in the sense that there have been many parts replaced over the 30+ years. The lady who owned the car maintained it very well and has kept complete records of all maintenance. It has travelled approximately 195k km. It maintains the main theme of the 240Z-L, with the fender mirrors, headlight protectors, 8 track Stereo and AM Radio etc.

    I am "refreshing" the car only, but am anxious to get it back on the road. I am waiting on important parts and upgraded seat belts (retractable) and then I will be away.

    Congratulations on your cars once agian. I am particularly impressed with the Z432. It is amazing.

    Regards, Jack

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    Hello Kats,

    I was hoping you could tell me what the black canister is on the radiator bulkhead of the 432?

    Thank you very much for the pictures and video.

    Regards,
    Chris A.
    1973 240Z HLS30-156693

  20. #20
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    Hi Jack,
    That is a very interesting story,I love to imagine when your Z was on the trip by a ship.The Australian lady made a good choice of colour,blue Fairlady is very rare and I love blue.We hardly have ever seen this color on the road.Japanese people like to have White and Silver still nowadays.They do not want to have fun with colors?

    Especially for old days like 40 years ago,people chose not-loud color.To own a sports car,that was not usual thing for ordinary people.Even the people could have Z,they chose white/silver.We often say why so many Fairlady Zs are white or silver?Because here in Japan!

    I think Nissan knew this Japanese choice,then the factory made many white/ silver S30 prior to receive customer request.On the other hand,in the U.S. there are lots of Orange Zs,are not they?I guess Nissan was reported people in the U.S. love to have Orange for a sports car...

    Hi Chris A,
    The black box is an aircleaner box.It contains an wet paper filter.On the 432 run up video,you can see the orange box attached carbs,that looks like an air cleaner box,but it is not.It is air induction box.The orange box is connected to the black box.

    Attached pictures are from the Fairlady catalog. Cooling fan is made of plastic from the beginning of its production,not like an early L24 used a metal fan.

    You can see how is engine mounted , it is slant not level from the ground in order to make the drive train axle strait to the final gear.
    So the engine of S30 (L-series and S20)has to be high.Skyline mounts engine lower than S30.But drive train axle is not strait.

    kats
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-catalogs20.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-432view.jpg  
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
    Welcome to my web site,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903

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    Supporting Member ChrisA's Avatar
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    Thank you Kats!! Very interesting! Great stuff.

    Chris A.
    1973 240Z HLS30-156693

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    Hi,

    I do not know much about Skyline,but this shop is worth to look at.

    http://www.shiraishi-eng.jp/5_gallery/photo.html

    kats
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
    Welcome to my web site,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903

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    Hi Kats:
    Speaking of 240-Z's and Z-432's.

    Do you know if any of the Fairlady 240-Z's that were raced by the Factory supported teams are being restored by private owners today in Japan? Or for that matter any of the Fairlady 240-Z's that were raced by any of the famous private owners. After the Fairlady 240-Z's were released in Japan.

    regards,
    Carl B.
    BTW - you may recall that the very earliest L24's, that were planned for the DATSUN 240-Z's did have a plastic fan. That was the L24 with triple side drafts, and 175 HP - recall the early 1969 Sales Brochures - that engine was however killed by the US Emissions Standards that took effect in early 70.

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    Registered User kats's Avatar
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    Default 175PS for L24 and 180PS for S20

    Hello Carl,

    Yes I know what you are talking about L24 with plastic fan.
    I think that early days,some important things were not settled down yet,like this sales catalog said. U.S. Nissan planned to sale standard 240Z(150ps with S.U. carbs) and sports model 240Z(175PS with solex carbs)???

    For the Z432,there were 180PS model which is tested in the factory.It has got sports cam,valves,exaust manifold,etc.Engineers pushed this 432 to be listed on the brochure as a standard Z432. But that model was not listed.They all disapointed that decision.

    I recently became to know Mr.Miyazaki Takeo who was a Nissan engineer and talk with him by E-mail.
    Mr.Miyazaki told me very interesting S30 developing story which I have never heard of.

    He tested not only Fairlady-Z,also 240Z.Especialy he tested HS30,because he was in a europian 240Z team.

    Late 1960's and early 1970's,there were still conflict of Prince and Nissan.Mr.Miyazaki said Nissan bought Prince,but Nissan really did not use their skills.

    kats
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-l24175pswithsorex.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-0000437.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-0000483.jpg  
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
    Welcome to my web site,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903

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    Hi Kats:
    As always, very interesting. Do you have captions, for the pictures of Mr. Miyazaki? Is that him standing by the Z's and 510? What year was it taken?

    As I understand it - the conflict between the former Prince employees (Skyline Group?) and Nissan employees (Z Group?) continued far into the 90's. More understandable now, if Nissan used Prince's engine for the 432, but not the people that developed it, it would cause some hard feelings.

    It is a shame that Nissan Management allowed the two groups to compete within the corporation for so many years. Mass production and the sale of the Skylines in the US might have added significantly to the NISSAN brand here, as well as adding sorely needed revenue.

    The story is that when Renault took over - the Skyline group was finally forced to join the rest of the Nissan line-up. Of course the RB engine plant was shut down, the Nissan Competition Dept. in the USA was consolidated into the overall NISMO umbrella etc. So we might finally see the new Skylines sold here in the US.

    Of course with the very cheap cars predicted by Carlos and Toyota coming from China, we might well see the "DATSUN" brand brought back to the States as well. They are all saying a new car will be about $6K in the near future....


    As a side note - seeing the 510 in the picture you Posted and speaking of the return of DATSUN, here is a picture of my latest Datsun - a 1972 510 Station Wagon! It has about 200K miles, is mostly all original, and runs like a top. The original engine has never been taken apart, and with the exception of the hood, left front fender and door - the paint is all original. I'm the third owner now. As much fun to drive today as it was in 1972.

    regards,
    Carl B.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-510stationwagon2007.jpg  

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    Hi Kats:
    Oh by the way - the reason I ask about finding and restoring some of the 240-Z's that were raced by either the Factory Backed Teams or Private Teams in Japan; was because it would seem that some of them should still be around, and maybe not as sought after as the 432's have been so far. Might be a good time to find one of them to buy and restore.

    Brian Long lists 16 races as "Notable outright victories in Japan" between 4/70 and 4/75. After the 240-Z was introduced into the competition in 7/70 the 240-Z's won 10 of the remaining 14.

    3 Drivers are listed for the four 432 victories, but 6 different drivers are listed for the 240-Z's 10 victories - so it would seem that given the larger number of drivers, if not cars - some of the 240-Z's would have been located and restored to their historic spec.'s by now.

    Does Nissan have any in their collection in Japan? Have you located any of the original Drivers? As you know several of the noteworthy Drivers of the early Z's are still active in the Z Car Community here in the States and several of the early Championship cars are being or have been restored.

    Brad Frisselle's IMSA GTU Championship Z The "asking" price is $275K

    regards,
    Carl B.

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    Carl,

    The basic answer to your question is yes, they are still around, in private collections, sometimes shown and driven, and highly sought after.

    Chris
    Enjoy the Ride
    HLS30-00026
    HLS30-00027
    http://home.earthlink.net/~cwenzel/index.html
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    Hey that thing was rebuilt in my back yard. I used to live in Scotts Valley. Now I'm going to have to find some time to stop by and ogle it.
    =Enigma=
    CZCC#9360
    4/73 - HLS30-156236

    My name is Adam and I'm a Zeeoholic!

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    Registered User daddz's Avatar
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by kats View Post
    Hi,

    pictures of the dash and tach.

    44 12 26 (26 Dec 1969) for the dash,
    15 11, 9, (15 Nov 1969) for the tach.

    kats
    kats,
    Words cannot express my amazement at that Z432. What a beautiful example of how these cars should be preserved and presented. Is there any chance you will bring either or both of these cars to Daytona later this year? If not Hosomi-san may need some help as he is planning to drive two cars to the convention.

    Thanks again for the soundtrack.

    Is there any explanation as to how the Showa date is in a slightly different format for the tachomoeter versus the typical format as on the back of the dashboard?

    BTW,
    I have been meaning to communiccate my latest Showa date finding in a late S30 or S31 chassis as you would refer to it in Japan. I removed the carpeting recently from my '78 280Z and on the back of the carpet was a Showa date stamped and clearly legible. The question is would this date also be found on the back of the carpeting in a 240Z?
    http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb203/daddsun/

    http://www.classiczcars.com/photopos...00&ppuser=3015
    77 280Z HLS30366531
    78 280Z HLS30434713
    78 280Z HLS30456240
    81 280ZX hardtop blackout pkg
    81 280ZX hardtop
    83 280ZX hardtop
    86 300ZX hardtop *146597
    86 300ZX hardtop *148652
    96 300ZX hardtop LP2
    03 350Z AX8

    86.5 Toyota Supra hardtop
    87 Mazda RX-7 base hardtop

  30. #30
    Registered User kats's Avatar
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    Default little update:Z432 ran 1000 miles in two days

    Hello all,
    Carl,there are some S30 famous drivers still can ride in the restored/original or replica S30 in Japan.We can see both(Zs and drivers) at Nismo festival every year.Alan reported very well some time ago with pictures.

    But I have not seen the very first Z432-Rs which run at the race in 1970 nor the very first 240Z (in 1970,Japanese market did not have 240Z yet.But RHD shell powered with L24,I think it is not just HS30 for export.432-R shell with L24 I guess) running at the festival.

    daddz,thank you always,I want to bring my Z again but,I do not know when can I do again.My dream is two Zs from Japan are driven by me and my son across in the U.S. I will need to take a few months vacation

    I have not thought about format of date stamp,it is interesting.Let's gather as many as possible,then we can see some trends.I wish I could have chance to see the original carpet!

    I drove Z432 1000 miles in two days.That was very fun to travel.
    That days were very fine,strong sun shine and temp rose like summer.
    So many bugs sticked on the front section,but Z432 was always fun to drive.

    Now Z432 is sitting next to the 240Z,I have just started comparing generally and precisely each other.

    kats
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010175.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010185.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010204.jpg  
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
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    Default some parts

    Hi,
    I intentionaly remain original early choke plate,because NOS one is available but there are "ON" on the face,it is slightly later one.I painted it by my self(left one)

    Also I intentionaly not replace the seats,they are very nice as 37 years old.
    I am always saying the difference of shape of the seat back.This early(possible DEC 1969 or Jan 1970 made)seat remains its good shape.I love that.Two plastic side guards are came with.

    The two dove tails are very very rare now,they are very easy to crack.How many Zs are still equiped with these early thin parts?They are the originals,Z432 got NOS for right and left.They are not interchangable.

    Plastic hook for the seat belt is different from 1971- model.But I know more earlier hook is metal core and rubber dipped.We can say Jan 1970 has plastic small hook as a second version,can't we?
    Also,I noticed Japanese Z has hook on the very upper side of the seat back.Almost near our year when we sit.Looking at U.S. Z,the hook on the middle of the seat back.Near our shoulder.Only very very early Japanese Z like on the brouchure has same location like U.S. Z. I have never seen shoulder location except 1969 Z in Japan.

    I collected all metal emblems for Z432 like my 240Z."432" is still available at local Nissan but they are plastic.You can see the difference between "DATSUN" and " Z" both are metal and for the hood."Z" is thicker than "DATSUN".

    kats
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010173.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010236.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010275.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010276.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010282.jpg  

    Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010285.jpg  
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
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    Default with Z432-R

    At the Tokyo old car show,two 432s were there.
    The Orange one is Z432-R,this car belongs to Mr.Takeuchi and is well known as a best example of Z432-R.We see this car on the book and web so many times.

    You can see the Z432-R's oil cooler,non-master vac of the break system.
    I have got a NOS oil cooler but I will not install it.S20 engine is very good for cooling,my driving style could be "too cool" for the engine.If you race it and always go up to 10000rpm,you need the oil cooler.If you install it,you also need a pair of special bracket for the dual horns.

    And,FRP hood.This is not After market.This is original,very cool.

    kats
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-z432r1.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-z432r2.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-z432r3.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-z432r4.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-z432r5.jpg  

    Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010094.jpg  
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
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    Default

    Thanks for the pictures, Kats. These are great!
    Enjoy the Ride
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    Default earliest hood

    Thank you Chris!

    Some one noticed this Z432's hood is NOS but later type.Original hood came with,but paint finish was not completed before I picked up.

    Now the original hood is in painting,please note the edge of the corner,it is very simple metal press.This is the earliest.

    kats
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010004a.jpg  
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
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    I love that engine!!
    Mike

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    Kats,
    Nice thread subject, and great pictures - thank you! Your 432 looks beautiful now that it is finished ( my favourite 432 colour too I think ). Congratulations!

    Quote Originally Posted by kats View Post
    The Orange one is Z432-R,this car belongs to Mr.Takeuchi and is well known as a best example of Z432-R.We see this car on the book and web so many times.
    I have seen Takeuchi san's car many times at shows, and in magazines / videos etc and no disrespect to him or his car ( of course I love it - especially his tyre choice; very 'correct' ) - but I don't honestly think it is the "best example" of a PZR in Japan because it has so many non-standard parts and modifications on it. In the engine bay alone, you can immediately see the Weber carburettors and red 'Ultra' plug wires are non-standard, and his seats also appear to have been re-covered at some time in the past. I think that there are several more original and 'correct' PZRs in Japan, but their owners are more camera-shy than Takeuchi san.

    And of course, just about every PZR was unique in it's specification and details anyway. No two cars were exactly the same..........


    Quote Originally Posted by Kats
    I drove Z432 1000 miles in two days.That was very fun to travel.
    That days were very fine,strong sun shine and temp rose like summer.
    So many bugs sticked on the front section,but Z432 was always fun to drive.

    Now Z432 is sitting next to the 240Z,I have just started comparing generally and precisely each other.
    Kats,
    I would like to hear your impressions on the differences of the two cars with regard to the driving experience. I think this is a good opportunity for an objective comparison between two almost completely standard factory-spec Z cars, made within a few months of eachother, but of different model types and aimed at completely different markets.

    As you know, I have driven some 432s ( first time was around Tsukuba circuit - which was very interesting, and on the same day as I drove a Toyota 2000GT - which was a real eye-opener! ) and it was very interesting to compare the driving experiences to my UK-market 240Zs and to my Fairlady 240ZG. But I have also driven some reasonable distances in some USA & Canada market cars here in the UK and in Japan ( one was a 1970-built Canadian market model, and the others were early 1971 and late 1972 USA market models ). The differences were surprising to me even though I was pretty much expecting them.

    Have you come to a view yet?

    Cheers,
    Alan T.

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    Default I catch you

    Thanks Mike ,
    and Alan,I am going to London this month,15th Jun.Is there any chance to see you there?I also tell Len that my flight is set.

    you can immediately see the Weber carburettors and red 'Ultra' plug wires are non-standard, and his seats also appear to have been re-covered at some time in the past.
    You are very strict!I have to be honest,my Z432 has lots of "non-standard" parts.Front wind screen,plated axle,front break disk(first slotted hat originals were installed,but they are not enough thickness),door weather strips(originals were tried but they are too thick the doors didn't shut correctly,replaced to the later soft and thin one)

    My 240Z is now 7 years old from restoration,well maintained but not clean.I think my 240Z is purer than Z432,240Z has lots of original parts from body panels to screws.


    First of all,before I decided to buy Z432,I had hated Z432.My best car in my mind was DATSUN 240Z.Because Every time Z432 show up in the magazine,journalists say "top model of S30 family"
    What is the definition of "top " in that case?The highest price?I did not agree.
    S20 engine ?I was very suspicious about S20,because many many Z and skyline owners say "S20 engined car(Z432 and skyline GTR) is not so fast on the street,modified L series is faster and easier to drive than S20.those car is always difficult to set up and maintain for good condition."

    Now I found,Z432 is very exciting car.My first ride was last year,on Mr.Yoshida's car.I was surprised S20 engine is so sexy looking and sound,torque engine and sharp response for the throttle control.

    And my 1000miles driving with renewed Z432,
    Everything is tight,suspension is good,steering ,throttle and clutch pedal are needed little more muscle than 240Z.These feeling is very exciting for me.
    I feel "I am driving car!"
    I think 240Z is very soft everything.I know it is 7 years old from restoration,I can not compare directly with the car fresh off the restoration shop.

    One thing I want to tell you all,I was in heavy traffic jam on the highway on this 1000miles driving with Z432.I had to go a several feet ,then stop.I had to repeat this almost 40 to 50 minutes!!Outside was very hot,I was worried about water temp.I unlatched hood lock to give little open for air flow and turned on heater.I always do this 240Z when I have to drive in a jam.

    Water temp of Z432 had been stabilized in the middle all the time.That was better than 240Z.240Z's temp is higher little more in the same situation.
    S20 engine has well considered water cooling system and cross-flow intake and exhaust system gives good operation,fuel will not be heated,you can not get fuel vapor lock because of the fuel pomp is near the gas tank and three carbs are opposite side of exhaust manifold.

    Thanks,
    PS the picture is Mr.Yoshida's Z432

    kats
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010021a.jpg  
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
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    Quote Originally Posted by kats View Post
    ....and Alan,I am going to London this month,15th Jun.Is there any chance to see you there?I also tell Len that my flight is set.
    Great! We must meet up. Have you arranged anything with Len yet? I will PM you.

    Quote Originally Posted by kats
    You are very strict!I have to be honest,my Z432 has lots of "non-standard" parts.
    Personally I don't have any problem with non-standard parts on these cars ( my cars have lots too! ), but I think magazines and books that use non-standard cars for illustration of original specifications should be a little more careful. This is one of the reasons why people become confused, and it makes things a lot more difficult to understand for the enthusiast - let alone the layman. I think we need to know the stock 'Factory' specs in order to get the right perspective of the cars, that's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by kats
    First of all,before I decided to buy Z432,I had hated Z432.My best car in my mind was DATSUN 240Z.Because Every time Z432 show up in the magazine,journalists say "top model of S30 family"
    What is the definition of "top " in that case?The highest price?I did not agree.
    Ha ha! I know what you mean, but Nissan were in the business of selling cars and this is the way that cars get sold. Many of the people that had their tongues hanging out when they crowded around the 432 on that swish turntable at the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show will have probably ended up buying Cherries, Bluebirds and Sunnies ( if they even bought a new car at all ). The drip-down aspiration from the 'Prestige' models is what helps the bulk sales models to sell. Maybe some of those young guys eventually managed to buy a base-model Fairlady Z ( or even a Z-L - wow! ). You shouldn't 'hate' the 432 just because it naturally found itself somewhere around the top of the pile any more than I should 'love' the base-level S30 for being such an underdog at the bottom of the same pile.

    Spare a thought for the poor misguided people who still seem to believe that the S30-series was not a 'family' at all.........

    Quote Originally Posted by kats
    And my 1000miles driving with renewed Z432,
    Everything is tight,suspension is good,steering ,throttle and clutch pedal are needed little more muscle than 240Z.These feeling is very exciting for me.
    I feel "I am driving car!"
    I think 240Z is very soft everything.I know it is 7 years old from restoration,I can not compare directly with the car fresh off the restoration shop.
    Ah, I'm glad you feel this way as it corresponds very well with my own impressions. To be brutally frank, the USA & Canada models I drove felt somewhat 'numb' to drive - rather like trying to drink a cup of tea not long after having a local anaesthetic at the Dentist's surgery. They felt a bit dead and sedan-like in a way that my UK market cars and my ZG did not. The 432s on the other hand feel so 'alive' and connected to the road and to me.

    I felt that the 432 - with close-ratio 'A' type 5-speed, 4.44 ratio LSD, nice spring, anti-roll bar and damper rates and of course that 'afterthought' S20 engine installation - just felt like a really well-balanced package for a standard car. They felt special enough for me to believe that no modifications or upgrades were strictly necessary.

    Cheers,
    Alan T.

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    Just goes to back up my thought that the rest of the world had their Z experience financed by the enthusiasts here in the USA-you guys got all the goodies and options and we got the actual base model...spread the development cost to the world, but keep the toys for the chosen ones...
    Will
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    You can say all you want, but the racing record is here in America. Sure the Z was raced in "other" countries, but the record number of overall victories and consecutive championships is here - home of good-'ol Meric'n Enginuuity. Call us cowboys, but we know 'zaclly' what to do with a soft, voluptuous spinner like an HLS30. Too bad they don't have Corvettes and Mustangs to blow off in England or Japan. Sure, any red-blooded Yank loves the sophistication of the foreign Fairlady, but we did just fine with our imported babes.
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    I'm just thankful we got the 240Z!
    Though being given the opportunity for both would have been great too!
    Will
    Last edited by hls30.com; 06-06-2007 at 07:55 AM.
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    Dang! I'm just grateful for getting opinions from people who have had the opportunity to drive a 432, "brutally frank" or not.

    Congratulations Kats! Great car!, I sure do look forward to your posts.

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    Hmmmm,
    I mention that the USA / Canada models of HLS30 ( and that's not all HLS30 models by the way....... ) feel a little *soft* to my taste, and it instantly seems to raise some hackles. Interesting.

    I don't consider my opinion of the USA / Canada models to be a criticism as such ( maybe more of an *appraisal* based on comparisons with other models I have driven ) and I can't see how it can be taken that way. Those cars were configured that way, and it was considered 'correct' for the majority of their market at the time. They sold like hot cakes, and therefore their specification was quite obviously well judged. How on earth can this be described as in any way giving Katayama san a "bad rap"???

    I'd be interested to compare notes with any other members beside Kats who have driven all the models discussed. Any volunteers? Maybe not.

    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-HLS30
    You can say all you want, but the racing record is here in America. Sure the Z was raced in "other" countries, but the record number of overall victories and consecutive championships is here - home of good-'ol Meric'n Enginuuity. Call us cowboys, but we know 'zaclly' what to do with a soft, voluptuous spinner like an HLS30. Too bad they don't have Corvettes and Mustangs to blow off in England or Japan. Sure, any red-blooded Yank loves the sophistication of the foreign Fairlady, but we did just fine with our imported babes.
    Ha ha!
    Remind me - What state of the USA was the East African Safari Rally run in? That's an event of WORLD significance contested between the most serious factory teams, and was won twice outright by the '240Z'. The first time it won - in 1971 - the car was running with 'Fairlady Z' emblems on it, which must have made a few people who reportedly hated that name bite their tongues.

    Yes of course the Z was raced with huge success in the USA ( and hats off to that ), but to talk with authority about any "record number of overall victories and consecutive championships" you would need to have a very good idea of what the Z's racing record in Japan consisted of - would you not? If I thought for one moment that you had such data to hand and had considered it in full comparison, then I might take your claim a little more seriously.

    Actually, we DO have Corvettes and Mustangs ( and even Camaros ) here in the UK, and have had them over here since they were new. Yours truly even owned a couple of them in his youth, which brought a little deja vu to the driving experience of those USA & Canada market Z models

    And before you get too carried away about all this "us" and "them", remember this: Over here in Europe we never got the 432 either! "We" did get what was ( in my opinion ) a spec that was a little more *sporty* a version of the Z than "you" though, and one presumes that this too was a fairly good judgement of the markets concerned.

    Too bad that NONE of us ( even Japan ) ever got the triple-carbed 'High Po' L-gata version of the '240Z' - whose shoes the 432 model was created to fill - alongside the more sedate models. In fact, markets outside Japan might have enjoyed any kind of multi-level model variant choice come to that.




    Will, you are MOST welcome to Liz Hurley. None of us over here are remotely interested in her. Mutton dressed as lamb.

    Alan T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z View Post
    Sure the Z was raced in "other" countries
    In "other" countries when you think about the racing history of the S30, its racing pedigree in the US doesn't really come to mind. I guess you have to be American to have that point of view.
    www.nostalgictrio.com Skyline - Silvia - Fairlady Z
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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    Too bad that NONE of us ( even Japan ) ever got the triple-carbed 'High Po' L-gata version of the '240Z'

    Alan T.

    Hello Alan, can you elaborate on this model? One of a kind? Works cars? Please, please tell what you know.

    Very interesting thread by the way. I was hoping we'd leave the "us versus them" stuff out but its inevitable I guess.

    I'd give a lot of money to drive the other S30 versions. Just to say that I had!

    Chris
    1973 240Z HLS30-156693

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    Alan,
    I realized the folly of my reading in, and edited my post. MY apologies, my fingers typeth over in a misguided attempt to be a wee bit funny. I revisited the parts books (JDM and USA/Canada, and saw that I am glad a 432 is different, it should be, and yes, I would trade my eyeteeth for one, but not my 240Z!

    I picked Elizabeth Hurley( she was the first decidedly English movie star I could come up with-though I have only seen her in Bedazzled, Passenger 57, and Austin Powers) over Shirley Stelfox and Mary Millar because she was far prettier to me-but still had "Rose" quality of Hyacinths sister-Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink, Know what I mean, Know what I mean!
    Will
    Last edited by hls30.com; 06-06-2007 at 10:01 AM.
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    Default Z432 reached to the U.S.

    Thank you lots of input every one,

    My love for my 240Z has not changed at all.I love it very much and I love everything related with the 240Z especialy U.S. 240Z.

    I am loving Z432,and learning Z432.Soon I can not say which is the best for me,I will say I love them "Both".

    Remember I told about Mr.Miyazaki (please see #24 in this thread) he said he was told one Z432 sent (exported?) to the U.S. but soon it crashed.
    And one S20 was sent too.

    Let's find out who is hiding with S20 in his hand!!Must be somewhere.

    Mr.Miyazaki said Z432 was not exported to the U.S. due to emission regulation which was getting harder and harder at that time.Engineers did not think about a smog pump with a S20.It looses power,it does nothing good for S20 as a racing engine.

    And consider about service and repair surpport in the U.S.,Nissan thought it was imppossible to expect good number of mechanics who can really take care of S20 engine. ( I do not know about this,but same in Japan,the old Z432 owner told me he had to drive 500 miles to Tokyo Nismo service center for maintainance of Z432 in 70's.)

    What about Europe and Australia? No smog requiered.I do not have any idea.Cost of S20? maybe.Let me think about price conversion back in 1970.

    The 240Z in the U.S. was $3,526 ,I chose the Fairlady-ZL to the best comparison was 1,080,000JPY.

    Z432 was 1,850,000JPY. S20 engine was saying aprox.700,000JPY.

    Z432=1.712x ZL , so if Z432 was on sale in the U.S.,the price tag would be $6,040 (please do not take this seriously)

    What do you think of this price range?No-more good price?What about value for money in this case?

    I said before,S20 engine has no problem in the High temp operation,I feel disapointment that Z432 was not exported.Like Arizona and Texas,Florida people could enjoy and buy Z432.

    PS:spare tire bord is two piece for Z432.
    The seat belt hook for JDM is this location.

    kats
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-img002.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010810.jpg  
    Katsuhiko Endo
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    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
    Welcome to my web site,
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    Great pics Kats.

    Looking at the pic of the brake and clutch masters, can you tell me why there are what looks like two ballast resistors attached to the firewall? Just curious tiz all.

    Hell Alan, Liz Hurley!!! I for one wouldn't kick her out of my bed and being a New Zealander, I LOVE mutton . I sopose you would prefer Fergie?
    Zed not Zee

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    Quote Originally Posted by kats View Post
    Cost of S20? maybe.Let me think about price conversion back in 1970.

    The 240Z in the U.S. was $3,526 ,I chose the Fairlady-ZL to the best comparison was 1,080,000JPY.

    Z432 was 1,850,000JPY. S20 engine was saying aprox.700,000JPY.

    Z432=1.712x ZL , so if Z432 was on sale in the U.S.,the price tag would be $6,040 (please do not take this seriously)

    What do you think of this price range?No-more good price?What about value for money in this case?

    kats
    Kats,

    In 1970, $1.00 = Y360. So, Y1,850,000 = $5,139.00. Add shipping, customs, import tax, etc, and $6,040.00 seems to be very close, if not a little low. Value for the money? Certainly. But remember the mind of Americans at that time - Japanese car = cheap transportation. $6,040.00 could buy a lot more American car, so I think it would not sell well at that time.
    Miles

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    Hi Kats:
    The seat bottoms you show at Post #31 - have black seat tracks. All of them I've seen here in the US were originally an olive green or olive drab, seemed to be a rust proofing paint. Were the JDM seat tracks black for some reason?

    regards,
    Carl

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    Too bad that NONE of us ( even Japan ) ever got the triple-carbed 'High Po' L-gata version of the '240Z' - whose shoes the 432 model was created to fill - alongside the more sedate models. In fact, markets outside Japan might have enjoyed any kind of multi-level model variant choice come to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Hello Alan, can you elaborate on this model? One of a kind? Works cars? Please, please tell what you know.
    Chris,
    To try to cut a long story short:

    Basically, once the L-series six had been assigned for use on what would become the S30-series Z, a 'high performance' version of it was scheduled to be fitted to a special model for the range. This 'high performance' version was going to be sold in most territories as a kind of image-building model that would set a tone for the rest of the range to follow. Japan was going to have this triple-sidedraught carbed L24 in the Z too.

    But then - and this is not too long after Prince was merged with Nissan - the top brass 'noticed' that they already had a high performance engine on the cards that was being developed from the Prince GR8 race engine. This was the two litre S20 twin-cam, and it was going to fitted to the new C10 Skyline range that was soon to debut with Prince-derived fours and Nissan's L-gata six.

    Much to the annoyance of the proudly ex-Prince 'Skyline' team at Murayama ( an ex-Prince plant ), Nissan's management forced them to supply S20 twin cams for the S30-series Z range project, and dropped the idea of the 'High Po' L24-engined model. This gave them their 'image-building' high performance model, and made good use of a valuable - if somewhat underused - S20 engine resource. All through the project however, the Murayama guys were grinding their teeth at the thought of their precious S20 being used on the arch-Nissan S30 project, and dragged their heels somewhat through the development process. This resistance sowed the seeds for the race exploits of the 432R to be curtailed somewhat early, and for high performance L24 engines from Oppama and Omori to be be installed in the race-winning 432R bodies. Basically, the Murayama boys didn't really want their 'Prince' and 'Skyline' engine to be associated with the 'enemy' crew and their 'Nissan' Z. Hence the Oppama race team's bad-mouthing of the ( race winning! ) S20 engine when they switched back to the L-gata half way through the 1970 season. Just factional inter-departmental war-mongering at heart.............

    That's it in a nutshell, really. If you think of the S30 range as a 'family' of different models through the design, engineering and production stages then it makes sense and sounds logical. Nissan did this kind of thing with all their models during this period, so it would be strange for them not to have had an image-leader high-performance version of the Z too. That 'High Po' L24 engined version is one of the great lost S30-series Z 'ghost' models.

    Hope I did the story justice.......
    Alan T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240znz View Post
    Looking at the pic of the brake and clutch masters, can you tell me why there are what looks like two ballast resistors attached to the firewall?
    I can answer this if Kats does not mind.

    The 432 and 432R used a Mitsubishi electronic ignition system, and it incorporated extra ballast resistors.


    Fergie! Eek!


    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    Were the JDM seat tracks black for some reason?
    No, they were that delicious olive green the same as everywhere else. Kats' appear to have been painted black.

    Alan T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA View Post
    Hello Alan, can you elaborate on this model? One of a kind? Works cars? Please, please tell what you know.

    Chris
    Hi Chris:
    The image below is one of the original Sales Brochures that the Datsun Dealers in the US had before the first Datsun 240-Z's arrived here for public sale in late Dec. of 1969. From these sales brochures the Dealers took advanced sales orders, many customers ordered the Z's and paid for them in advance, to get at the head of the delivery list.

    As you can see, at that time the plan was for a 175HP, L24, with triple side drafts etc., 5.5" wheels and a 5spd for the US Market "DATSUN 240Z SPORTS".

    Between the released Federal Emissions Standards in 1966 and the 1967 Federal Safety Standards for the US , both these regulations were in constant flux, written, re-written and debated in Congress, public hearing held, conferences with Industry conducted etc etc - until finally issued in their final form for 1970.

    Nissan and all the other Automobile Manufacturers were lobbying the U.S. Federal Government for delayed implementation, or requirements reductions in these standards, ahead of that time; while the Environmentalists and Safety Nuts - lobbied for stricter and faster implementations.

    Nissan assigned a Vice President on Nissan Motors in USA, to represent them in Washington D.C. in 1966. In this regard Mr. Kawazoe reported directly to the President of Nissan Motors Ltd in Japan. He was not only the official representative of Nissan Motors Ltd. to the legislative and executive branches of the US Government. Mr. Kawazoe also acted for the Automotive Importers of America, of which he was the vice-president. In addition, he was designated as the spokesman for the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association, of which the President of Nissan Motors Ltd, was the President at the time. (JAMA).

    When the emissions standards were finally set for 1970, in order to get the 240-Z certified for sale in the US - it took a somewhat de-tuned L24 with lower compression, the S.U.'s and an Air Pump for California. The Air Pump was needed to meet the 71 standards for the US anyway, by June of 1970 as I recall, so it too became standard on all the 240-Z's coming into North America as well. Of course our Emissions and Safety Standards got ever more stringent for 72, 73, 74, 75, 77, etc etc etc.... The main reason the US got the Fuel Injected 280Z...

    FWIW,
    Carl B.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-240zbrochure60p2small.jpg  

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    Hullo All

    I hope this doesn't take us all too far away from the original Thread. I am very impressed with the restoration by Kats of his 432R car. There has been a little discussion about costs when this car was first released.

    I am very interested to know what a car like Kats would be worth now (in say US$)?? The quality of Kats' restoration must be up there with the best, so would set something of a benchmark for values of Z cars. Can anyone comment?

    Here in Australia there have been sales of "Aussie Muscle Cars" reaching AUD500,000. In particular Ford Falcon GTHO Phase III cars have sold in this price bracket.

    When I bought my first 240Z in 1970, mates were buying GTHO Falcons. The cost was "about the same". I cannot recall the exact prices of course. However, the best of those GTHO's are know worth (cost???) seriously big money.

    So my question is: What is a top quality 240Z (like Kats' 432R for example) worth?

    I think this would be most interesting to know!!

    Regards, Jack

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    Thank you Alan and Carl. Two different answers to my question about the Hi-Po L24 engine. Very interesting and I can understand both sides.

    It's indeed a shame that every market worldwide was not given the full family of S30's. I'd be confident that an S20 or triple carbed L24 model would have sold like hot dogs at Nathan's in the states.

    I understand all the "lore" of Nissan not wanting to overextend themselves in the U.S. but I'll always be disappointed that they didn't expand the U.S. model lineup when the cars imported here were selling like crazy.

    Chris
    1973 240Z HLS30-156693

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA View Post
    Thank you Alan and Carl. Two different answers to my question about the Hi-Po L24 engine. Very interesting and I can understand both sides.

    It's indeed a shame that every market worldwide was not given the full family of S30's. I'd be confident that an S20 or triple carbed L24 model would have sold like hot dogs at Nathan's in the states.

    I understand all the "lore" of Nissan not wanting to overextend themselves in the U.S. but I'll always be disappointed that they didn't expand the U.S. model lineup when the cars imported here were selling like crazy.

    Chris
    I second everything you said!
    Will
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA View Post
    Thank you Alan and Carl. Two different answers to my question about the Hi-Po L24 engine. Very interesting and I can understand both sides.
    Chris,
    You are welcome. As I say, I hope I did the ( Japanese ) story some justice. You will get different versions of the story depending on the perspective and allegiances of the teller, and - make no mistake - some of the bad feeling and personality clashes still linger to this day.

    One thing you might want to take into account with regard to the story of the higher performance L24-engined 'ghost' model that the 432 / 432R replaced, is that Nissan still produced most of the parts ( and more besides ) that were to be fitted to this model and they sold them through their 'Sports Options' lists in Japan. This meant that a customer in Japan could walk into the appropriate dealership in Japan and specify a new Z with as many of these Sports Option parts as he required. The car would then be built to order and delivered for one price - so the choice of a 'hot' L-engined version was still there.

    These 'Sports Option' parts were available in some other markets - but just as parts. However, here in the UK the concessionaires ( Datsun UK ) didn't want anything to do with them. Anybody in the UK who wanted the stuff had to approach a dealer who would lend a kind ear, or approach Nissan in Japan direct. Not fair, eh?

    By the way, notice that the English language Japanese brochure that Carl attached above describes the car as the "H(L)S30(U)"? Some people seem to miss the full significance of that designation..........

    Quote Originally Posted by jackwarnock
    I am very impressed with the restoration by Kats of his 432R car.

    What is a top quality 240Z (like Kats' 432R for example) worth?
    Jack,
    Nitpicking for a moment ( sorry ): Please note that Kats' new car is a 'PS30' model Fairlady Z432. It is NOT a 'PS30-SB' model Fairlady Z432-R ( which is rarer by a factor of around 20 ). It is also ( adamantly, I suspect! ) NOT a "240Z" either.........

    But to attempt to answer your question; The very BEST Fairlady Z432 models change hands privately, and don't often get openly advertised for sale. The better examples of cars that DO change hands through advertising are currently demanding upwards of the equivalent to around US$50,000~60,000
    and this is an upward trend. Proper 432-R models ( less than 25 sold to the general public ) have already changed hands for over US$120,000.


    Alan T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    By the way, notice that the English language Japanese brochure that Carl attached above describes the car as the "H(L)S30(U)"? Some people seem to miss the full significance of that designation..........

    Alan T.
    Ah yes, I went back and looked at that again. Seems like the designation (L) is kind of an afterthought in my opinion.

    Regarding the bad feelings and personality clashes, I can relate. In my profession the Mack/Volvo marriage has not been a bed of roses.

    Thanks again for the information.

    Chris
    1973 240Z HLS30-156693

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    Quote Originally Posted by sakijo View Post
    Kats,

    In 1970, $1.00 = Y360. So, Y1,850,000 = $5,139.00. Add shipping, customs, import tax, etc, and $6,040.00 seems to be very close, if not a little low. Value for the money? Certainly. But remember the mind of Americans at that time - Japanese car = cheap transportation. $6,040.00 could buy a lot more American car, so I think it would not sell well at that time.
    Miles and kats,
    I can only imagine the astute car enthusiast with means in 1970 being able to purchase both a Toyota 2000GT and a Z432. To have actually driven both cars such as Alan is truly a remarkable feat without having been a journalist from that era.

    As always thanks again for the great photos.
    http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb203/daddsun/

    http://www.classiczcars.com/photopos...00&ppuser=3015
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA View Post
    Ah yes, I went back and looked at that again. Seems like the designation (L) is kind of an afterthought in my opinion.

    Chris
    Hi Chris:
    It was most likely a good after thought too - since it covered 98.2% of the Datsun 240-Z's in 1970. By the end of 1973 the "L" covered about 97.5% of all Datsun 240-Z's.

    In 1969/70 there were over 940 Datsun Dealers in the US, plus another 65 or so in Canada.... Can you name a country in the world that had over 10 Datsun Dealers outside North America?

    Like I said, it must have been a very good after thought - yes?

    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Hi Chris:
    snip
    In 1969/70 there were over 940 Datsun Dealers in the US, plus another 65 or so in Canada.... Can you name a country in the world that had over 10 Datsun Dealers outside North America?

    Like I said, it must have been a very good after thought - yes?

    FWIW,
    Carl B.
    You serious Carl,
    10 Dealers outside the US, please, I supplied you with the list of Australian Dealers which listed over 330 Datsun Dealers.
    Why do you have to be so USA centric?
    OK, I've named a country, now what have I won......?
    Mike of the Mire

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackwarnock View Post
    Hullo All

    I hope this doesn't take us all too far away from the original Thread.
    ..snipped....
    So my question is: What is a top quality 240Z (like Kats' 432R for example) worth?

    I think this would be most interesting to know!!

    Regards, Jack
    Hi Jack:
    I know that one 432Z in Japan, was offered for sale at $75K USD. The two serious collectors that were considering it - declined. Both expressed the risk of buying a car without going personally to inspect it, the hassle with the exchange rates and transferring large amounts of money outside the US now (Homeland Security), as well as the hassle of getting the car shipped safely from Japan to the Gulf Coast here in the USA.

    Taking to them, I believe that if a solid #1 or #2 432Z with proper documentation was offered for sale here in the US, both would have been buyers in the $50K to $60K range Alan mentioned, and perhaps a bit more for the right car.

    I do know that $125K will not buy the BRE #3 C-Production Z. The owner said he couldn't think of another car, for that money - that would be as much fun to own. He plans on racing it a few more years.

    A Top Quality 240Z will sell for between $25K and $35K right now. Depends on the location of the car and how hard the seller trys to market it - or how hot the buyer is to buy.

    If you shop and buy wisely, you can still find super nice 240-Z's in the $12K to $15K range. They won't be Concours winning examples, but they will be very very nice cars. Cars that would win local car shows when judged by knowledgeable judges - will sell for $18K to $20K.


    FWIW,
    Carl B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedrally View Post
    You serious Carl,
    10 Dealers outside the US, please, I supplied you with the list of Australian Dealers which listed over 330 Datsun Dealers.
    Why do you have to be so USA centric?
    OK, I've named a country, now what have I won......?
    Hi Mike:
    That's just too funny...

    I believe it was earlier established that in 1970 there were a few authorized Nissan Distributors in Australia. Australia received about 312 Datsun 240-Z's in 1970. The largest number sent anywhere outside North America.

    You might call me American Centric -but then why would I be such a fan of the Datsun 240-Z? I believe that the Z Car is American Centric and it seems there is this constant fog ball here that attempts to blur that fact.

    Believe it or not, I am happy that about 500 or so made their way to the fine folks in Australia each year between 1970 and 1973. I'm even more happy that Kats has a Fairlady 432Z. Maybe he'll bring it to America and sell it here...make a ton of money.. and go buy another one.

    regards,
    Carl B.

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    You know Carl, I'm convinced that you must be going soft.
    After reading the guts of this thread, I would have to say that you actually now admit to the 432Z as being...well a 432Z not a Datsun 240-Z that was built for the Japanese market!
    Mike of the Mire

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Like I said, it must have been a very good after thought - yes?

    FWIW,
    Carl B.
    Yes, I'm glad it was. Very glad. My local Dealership, Doan-Rose Datsun knew when I walked in the door that they might have to call Mr. Roberts and his staff for something!

    "We want a Datsun to win, ANY Datsun........"

    Chris
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    Hello,and thank you all.

    Alan and Carl make this thread active and spread more.And of course other folks' inputs are very important and interesting.Thank you always.

    For me,this is interesting.Why Nissan sold "stiff suspension" for Europe,"soft suspension" for the U.S. For Japan, both.How about Australia?
    HS30 for U.K. and Australia are completely same driving ability?
    HLS30 for U.S. and Europe are completely same driving ability?

    Mr.Miyazaki once told me when he was a chief of test crew of Europe 240Z,the team brought a 240Z with very very hard suspension to make good lap time at turn pike.He said 240Z was supposed to be enter Montecarlo rally before its debut in Europe,for PR.First he felt it was too much hard,but German Nissan said it was good.

    I know there was a DATSUN sports department in the U.S.
    And I know Mr.K likes sports car very much.He did great support for motor sports in the U.S.

    Did Mr.K think 240Z as it is just fine to sell every body?
    Mr.K thought if someone want to race 240Z,just buy parts from DATSUN sports department,didn't he?

    kats

    PS : amendment,Mr.Miyazaki told me two Z432s were sent to the U.S.Not just S20 engine.
    The one was a Z432 and the other was a Z432R. He was told the Z432R was crashed.
    If someone find Z432 and Z432R's wreck,please report here!!

    Carl,yes Z432's seat basement is painted black this time.Original is my 240Z's seat.See the picture.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-zloverun018.jpg  
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
    Welcome to my web site,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903

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    Default Sound system

    I will upload of some videos,operation of 8 track stereo system.
    Also do you want to see the different lighting system from the U.S. model?
    And rally clock operation?
    Two cars are locate very far from my house.So it will take some weeks.

    kats
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010170.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010177.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010212.jpg  
    Katsuhiko Endo
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    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
    Welcome to my web site,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903

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    Quote Originally Posted by kats View Post
    ... do you want to see the different lighting system from the U.S. model?
    And rally clock operation?
    Two cars are locate very far from my house.So it will take some weeks.

    kats
    Yes please!
    Will
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    Kats,

    I just noticed that your 432 has a tie-down hook on the right rear corner. I was under the impression that these were only used on cars that were exported via ship. Can you clarify?
    -Mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by kats View Post
    For me,this is interesting.Why Nissan sold "stiff suspension" for Europe,"soft suspension" for the U.S. For Japan, both.How about Australia?
    HS30 for U.K. and Australia are completely same driving ability?
    HLS30 for U.S. and Europe are completely same driving ability?

    .
    I am amazed at how history repeats itself. The 03 350z suspension is soft as well. I think they fixed it in later Z's. Any other 04,05,06,07 Z33 people please chime in. Kats many many thanks for the information you have provided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
    Kats,

    I just noticed that your 432 has a tie-down hook on the right rear corner. I was under the impression that these were only used on cars that were exported via ship. Can you clarify?
    I believe that those are towing hooks . . . Tow something with a Z? Go figure. Anyway, my Skyline has one in the center and it's a JDM model.
    Miles

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    Quote Originally Posted by kats View Post
    Hello,and thank you all.

    Alan and Carl make this thread active and spread more.And of course other folks' inputs are very important and interesting.Thank you always.
    Hi Kats:
    I am so happy for you to have a Fairlady 432Z. Keep it and enjoy it until your children are readly to go to College - then sell it and pay for their education. It is most likely a better investment than money in the bank, and less risky than the stock market.

    Quote Originally Posted by kats View Post
    For me,this is interesting.Why Nissan sold "stiff suspension" for Europe,"soft suspension" for the U.S. For Japan, both.How about Australia? HS30 for U.K. and Australia are completely same driving ability?
    HLS30 for U.S. and Europe are completely same driving ability?
    The US Spec Springs are 83lbs/in Front and 104 lbs/in Rear

    What we call the Euro. Spec. Stage I Springs are 101bls/in Front and 112lbs/in Rear

    What we call the Euro Spec. Stage II Springs are 122lbs/in Front and 140lbs/in Rear

    Spring rates on competition cars run 250 lbs/in to over 350lbs/in..

    As I understand it - the spring rate on the 432Z - were the same as the Euro Spec. Stage I Springs, with much stiffer Race Option rates available... 305lbs/in and 310lbs/in..

    The last time Alan and I discussed spring rates - we were not sure if the cars sent to GB had the same spring rates as the cars sent to Australia, and there was a question as to the location of the lower spring perch on the struts between the US, GB and Australian Z's. The location of the spring perch would effect ride height and in turn ground clearance.

    Quote Originally Posted by kats View Post
    Mr.Miyazaki once told me when he was a chief of test crew of Europe 240Z,the team brought a 240Z with very very hard suspension to make good lap time at turn pike.He said 240Z was supposed to be enter Montecarlo rally before its debut in Europe,for PR.First he felt it was too much hard,but German Nissan said it was good.
    As Alan mentioned it is more than likely that all these models were tailored to the local market. Given the import taxes in GB and Europe - the market for the Z was most likely limited to serious enthusiasts, whereas the market for the 240-Z here in the US was far broader. Yes, Mr. K wanted everyone to enjoy a Sports/GT not just serious sports car enthusiasts.

    Quote Originally Posted by kats View Post
    I know there was a DATSUN sports department in the U.S. And I know Mr.K likes sports car very much.He did great support for motor sports in the U.S.
    Yes - Nissan Motors in USA, had its own Competition Department and Competition Parts Department. So the serious enthusiasts that bought 240-Z's could modify them to whatever they wanted. However our Federal Laws prohibited the manufactures and their Authorized Dealers from making modifications that effected either the Safety of the vehicle or its Emissions Systems.

    One of the many unique and very endearing qualities of Mr. K was his desire for the owners of these cars to enjoy competition themselves. The Factory supported race teams of Bob Sharp Racing (BSR) and Brock Racing Enterprises (BRE) here in the States, were encouraged to develop, demonstrate and sell competition parts to the public. They were also, by contract agreement, to share competition car preparation experience with the Nissan Factory Teams in Japan and the private parties competing here in the USA. Given the nature of competition - lots of detailed preparation techniques became closely guarded secrets by all these teams. Factory support for the professional race teams ended here in 73. Nissan couldn't supply the demand already created for the Z's and 510's and Mr. K wanted the private owners to race their cars, with Nissan USA offering various levels of financial support, competition parts and technical support.

    It was Mr. K's direct involvement with, and support for , his enthusiast customers here that sat DATSUN and Mr. K apart from the other major manufacturers.


    Quote Originally Posted by kats View Post
    Did Mr.K think 240Z as it is just fine to sell every body?
    Exactly - he wanted to draw an entire generation of people into the "joys" of driving. The harsh riding, cramped cabins and unreliable reputations of the other "sports cars" in the class, really did not have broad appeal. The Datsun 240-Z addressed these shortcomings. People that had never thought of owning a sports car - were drawn the 240-Z because of its styling and utility. Once drawn in - they appreciated the car for its reliability, comfort, fun factor and and all around UTILITY! This was a Sports/GT that was made to fit the average size and larger American.

    Quote Originally Posted by kats View Post
    Mr.K thought if someone want to race 240Z,just buy parts from DATSUN sports department,didn't he?
    Exactly - DATSUN USA not only sold the parts to the public, they offered technical support as well, related to how to install and use the parts, and under what conditions they were best used. DATSUN USA sent Competition Bulletins to anyone that ask to be placed on the mailing lists, as well as to the local Dealers Parts & Service Dept.

    I'm sure that Nissan could have sold thousands of 432Z's here to the enthusiast market - if they had been able to build them and get them to meet the Emissions Standards... Would have been a great car in SCCA's D-Production. At the time $6,500.00 would not have scared too many enthusiasts away. Just the light weight bodies with the emissions controlled L24 would have been a great option, but then it would have had to pass the crash test standards here as well...

    kind regards,
    Carl B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sakijo View Post
    I believe that those are towing hooks . . . Tow something with a Z? Go figure. Anyway, my Skyline has one in the center and it's a JDM model.
    They are most definitely not tow hooks. The points they are mount to are not strong enough to handle the stress of towing. These are in fact tie down hooks that were supposed to be removed by the dealer before sale. Obviously many dealers didn't do this.
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    Default Two Hooks/Rings

    Two previous threads on tow hooks and rings follow

    Rear tow/tie down?

    Tow or Tie Down Hooks / Rings
    Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA View Post
    Ah yes, I went back and looked at that again. Seems like the designation (L) is kind of an afterthought in my opinion.
    Well, any inference of the "(L)" looking like an "afterthought" might end up in an emotive conversation - but that's not what I intended to point out.

    The fact is that Nissan quite often did this kind of thing when describing models in the S30-series range ( and indeed many other models ), and I think it gives an insight into the way they thought about the models concerned on that piece of paper. My point was that the quoted "H(L)S30(U)", when extrapolated properly, would cover the following models:

    *HS30 ( Japanese market - RHD L24 engined models )
    *HS30-U ( Export market - RHD L24 engined models )
    *HLS30 ( European mainland Export market - L24 engined models )
    *HLS30-U ( USA & Canada Export markets - L24 engined models )

    See my point? The term is more inclusive than some realise or remember. Since the document concerned was written well before any of the cars concerned were on sale to the general public, one has to wonder just what the following quote has to do with it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    It was most likely a good after thought too - since it covered 98.2% of the Datsun 240-Z's in 1970. By the end of 1973 the "L" covered about 97.5% of all Datsun 240-Z's.
    Yes, we know how many cars were sold in the USA/Canadian markets - but how do these numbers sold diminish the fact that the S30-series Z range was designed, engineered and produced as just that: a range or family of models - both LHD and RHD, and with differences in equipment and specifications across that range. Numbers sold tell us some of the story - but it is not the whole story - and they certainly do not give us a true perspective of the compromises and concessions made during the planning of the range. Numbers sold come after that fact, and are directly linked to the potential of those markets ( especially their populations and the price at which the product is sold ).

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    I believe that the Z Car is American Centric and it seems there is this constant fog ball here that attempts to blur that fact.
    I think anybody who can see a little further than the end of their own nose would easily see that the S30-series Z is a Japanese product that was designed, engineered and produced to suit several different markets, and several types of end user. If you think that preaching that message is to blur the facts then I feel rather sorry for you. Unfortunately Carl, you yourself are guilty of some of the worst cases of fact-blurring and spin on forums such as this one. Here are some good examples:

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    "Everything about the history of the Z Car seems to prove it was "centered" solely around the USA market."

    "The history of the design and development, production and sales of the LHD Z - shows clearly that the "240-Z" is the "Daddy". I don't believe that's a personal "bias" - just a presentation of the facts."

    "Yes, the total story of the Z would have to include a short chapter about all the various minor incarnations for nitch markets. However if you think they are "as important", "as significant" as the HLS30 - - then I have to believe you have missed the real "Story Of The Z Car".

    "The Fairlady Z's are interesting and they allowed Nissan to sell a few more cars in their home market - but your assertion that they were "as important", "as significant" or evenly weighted in the design consideration of the Z - are simply - well - your opinion. However I would suggest that your opinion is not based on any real facts nor sound logic."

    "The real story of the Z Car - is carried by the Datsun 240-Z - as specified, as designed, as built for the American market."
    Now, I think anybody would be able to see that those are some pretty aggressive views to be held on a Japanese industrial product - and to be honest ( from my perpective at least ) they are more than a little jingoistic. You really should not be all that surprised if some people take offence to such comments, and point out that they are don't really hold as much water as you seem to think they do. One only has to take one of these cars apart to get a clue as to the wrong-headedness of such bluster. Better still, line up the whole S30-series Z model range as it was at launch and one will instantly see that there is more to the story than what you usually put forward. Quantities sold tell us one part of the story - but nothing like the whole story. I'm interested in the whole story, and the inescapable fact is that it is a Japanese story of a Japanese product.

    Just looking at numbers sold is a very dangerous pastime for the automotive scholar. One could be led to believe that VW's Type 1, 2 & 3 models ( somewhat pioneering that lucrative USA market ) were actually 'American' cars because of the quantities sold there. How about the Porsche 356 and 911, or even ( dare I say it ) numerous English 'sports' cars of the 1950s & 1960s? They all sold in impressive numbers to the USA market, but that doesn't tell the whole story, does it?

    Alan T.
    Last edited by HS30-H; 06-09-2007 at 05:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    In 1969/70 there were over 940 Datsun Dealers in the US, plus another 65 or so in Canada.... Can you name a country in the world that had over 10 Datsun Dealers outside North America?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zedrally
    You serious Carl,
    10 Dealers outside the US, please, I supplied you with the list of Australian Dealers which listed over 330 Datsun Dealers.
    Why do you have to be so USA centric?
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    That's just too funny...
    I believe it was earlier established that in 1970 there were a few authorized Nissan Distributors in Australia.
    Too funny?
    You know Carl, if you want to continue citing these little factoids as proof that the USA / Canada market was BIG ( wow - who'd a thunk it? ) then you will have to do a little more in-depth research into the numbers you use. And to think that you are the one talking about the blurring of facts!

    For your reference ( maybe you'll write this down ): In 1970, Datsun UK had over 110 franchised and active dealerships. That's a few more than 10.

    I'll give you some kudos if you can tell me just how many Nissan dealerships were active in Japan ( you know - that little place on the other side of the world that made "American" cars for you ) during the same period.

    Always bearing in mind that such data is actually "irrelevant" as far as you seem to be concerned.

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    Default I am afraid

    Hi,
    I will never sold my Zs.I drive and drive them until they worn out.I do not keep them displayed in the garage,it is not good for maintaining mechanical condition.I do not care stone scratch on the fresh paint.

    Sometimes I ask myself how long I can enjoy such an old car?I am afraid someday Global worming,gas run out,etc will make me stop driving an old car. I am not serious right now but sometimes I think like that.

    I know if I sell my Zs I can not earn same amount of money which I payed for.I will loose lots of money even if I sell them right now.Even more I loose more money when I sell after 10 or 20 years later,Zs will accumulate lots of miles and no-more clean condition,and what if there will be the regulation of Prohibition of driving old car?

    I do not have any idea what I am doing after 10 or 20 years.So,I want to enjoy right now.

    kats
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    Welcome to my web site,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903

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    Quote Originally Posted by kats View Post
    Hi,
    I will never sold my Zs.I drive and drive them until they worn out.
    ...snipped...
    I do not have any idea what I am doing after 10 or 20 years.So,I want to enjoy right now.

    kats
    Hi Kats:
    Funny - that is exactly the way I was thinking when I had my First wife.

    just kidding,
    Carl B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    Too funny?
    You know Carl, if you want to continue citing these little factoids as proof that the USA / Canada market was BIG ( wow - who'd a thunk it? ) then you will have to do a little more in-depth research into the numbers you use. And to think that you are the one talking about the blurring of facts!
    As I've said before - I do the best I can. Perhaps instead of cursing the darkness, you'll light a candle and publish the information and their sources that you have.

    The numbers I used were from memory - Nissan USA reported 922 Authorized Datsun Dealers in 1970. Oops.. I was off by 18.

    It is not so much a matter of the USA/Canada markets being big, as it is a matter of historical fact that Japan very specifically wished to export automobiles to America. Could have been because it was the largest market, could have been because it was the most open. What ever the reason, the fact is it was America into which Japan Inc. wished to sell their exports, and for which they were willing to build what Americans wanted to buy.

    Really unlike the auto manufacturers in GB and Europe that seemed to think we should appreciate their offerings for what they were, rather than attempting to make them as more of us would have wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    For your reference ( maybe you'll write this down ): In 1970, Datsun UK had over 110 franchised and active dealerships. That's a few more than 10.
    Really? Wow.. I wonder how Richard Feast missed that.. You'll have to give me your source for that data, and I will include it in my references.

    According to Richard Feast's "Datsun's foothold in Britain", AUTOSPORT July 29, 1971.... for example:

    Less than 2000 Datsuns were sold in GB in 1970. The original franchise was handled by the Layford Group, but was eventually sold. Datsun UK Ltd. was FORMED at the end of 1970. I suppose that is one reason that the UK received only a couple 240-Z's in 1970.

    By the end of 1971 they were moving into their new facilities at Esplanade House in Worthing. Datsun UK Ltd. employed about 40 people. Between the end of 1970 and the report by Feast in mid 71 Datsun UK had "signed up" about 120 garages willing to sell Datsuns. He didn't break out the number of Nissan Authorized Dealers, actually open for business in 1970. He did report that Nissan said they sold less than 2000 units there in 1970.

    Feast writes:
    - Quote -
    "The method of introducing Datsuns to the British market was through dealer conventions. Local garage owners, professional people, potential customers and press were invited to a centre to hear about and sample the product. The result is some 120 garages selling Datsuns, some tempted from previously well established dealerships."
    - end quote -

    Of course we all know that articles in Automotive Magazines are often wrong. Nonetheless from memory it seems to agree with other sources I've run across.

    So I'll accept your answer to my Question - that GB is one country to have over 10 Dealers in 1970. With farther research I'm sure we can identify at least 10 Dealers in Australia as well - but so far we have only a list of Authorized Distributors there for 1970... some of which were still listed as Prince Distributors. It was a Nissan issued document, I'll see if I can find it again.

    Nonetheless it wasn't so much that the American market was BIG - so much as it is the fact that it is THE market that Nissan decided to compete in - in a big way first.

    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    I'll give you some kudos if you can tell me just how many Nissan dealerships were active in Japan ( you know - that little place on the other side of the world that made "American" cars for you ) during the same period.
    Well I'm glad to see that you finally accept the fact that Nissan Motors Ltd. was willing and able to design and build the cars their Customers in America wanted to buy. Big comfortable cars with lots of power! )

    I'm not really sure that Nissan Motors Ltd. in Japan actually had franchised Dealerships, in the sense that we did here in America. Where large inventories of new cars were on display, large Parts Departments socked huge inventories of parts and Service Departments handled all warranty work and mechanical work after the sale.

    Perhaps you could light a candle there as well, and inform us all of the exact retail sales arrangements in Japan in 1970. Did retail salesmen really come to one's home to sell the car, or is that just an urban legend ? Did one buy their car one place, then take it elsewhere for service or repair? What was the warranty on a new car purchased in Japan?

    Nonetheless, what ever the sales arrangements of the Japanese sales outlets, they sold about 3% of the total number of 240-Z's in Japan, and about 12% of the total Z Cars produced 70-73, into the home market. Nissan reported total production of vehicles at 1,374,022 of which 71% were sold into the JDM, so it was certainly a large and viable market for the right cars.


    Quote Originally Posted by HS30-H View Post
    Always bearing in mind that such data is actually "irrelevant" as far as you seem to be concerned.
    I'm not really sure what data you are referring to. Did you provide some data?... Oh, the Datsun UK having over 110 franchised and active dealers IN 1970?... Do you have a better source that explains how they managed that when they were formed in the last few months of that year? I'm not saying it isn't possible - just seems unlikey that 110 dealers would have sold less than 2000 vehicles in 1970 there. The 922 Dealers sold just over 150,000 Datsun in 1970, and just over 250,000 in 1971. Mostly because Nissan supplied them with the vehicles, but never enough to meet the demand, we were always waiting on more cars and trucks.

    FWIW,
    Carl B.
    Last edited by Carl Beck; 06-10-2007 at 08:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 26th-Z View Post
    ...Too bad they don't have Corvettes and Mustangs to blow off in England or Japan...
    As I was on my way to the Narita airport on my way home this February a very new looking Corvette passed my bus on the freeway. It was left hand drive of course, so I suspect that they only place where the owner can safely pass is on the freeway.
    '71 240Z, Because any fool can drive fast in a straight line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Perhaps instead of cursing the darkness, you'll light a candle and publish the information and their sources that you have.
    Darkness? I'm the one with my eyes wide open, trying to imagine the WORLD situation in the same way that Nissan was seeing it during the period concerned. I'm not looking down the wrong end of a telescope that is pointing in the wrong direction - as you so often seem to be.

    Your above post is a good example of the way you seem to want to twist data or 'facts' to suit your particular agenda, and then discount any evidence offered that contradicts it by simply moving your goal posts. You ask if any country outside the USA had more than 10 dealers in 1970 ( laughably ignoring Japan......! ) and then backpedal like crazy when somebody comes up with numbers that make your question look shortsighted and ill-informed. Worst of all you seem to have the stance that all situations in all territories should be compared using the situation in the USA as the benchmark - when you appear to know next to nothing about the situation in the home territory of the manufacturing company concerned, or realise that they had a very wide view of the potential of a WORLD market and were actively pursuing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck
    I'm not really sure what data you are referring to. Did you provide some data?... Oh, the Datsun UK having over 110 franchised and active dealers IN 1970?... Do you have a better source that explains how they managed that when they were formed in the last few months of that year?
    Your quote from the Autosport ( UK ) article of 1971 - and your comments on the content therein - also show how little you 'get'. The reason that you can't believe that Datsun UK Ltd. managed to have over 110 franchised and active dealers in the UK in 1970 when they were formed "in the last few months of that year" is because you are totally ignoring ( or totally oblivious? ) to the fact that this was simply a re-structuring and re-naming of the previous franchise situation - a company known as 'Nissan-Datsun Concessionaires Ltd'. The import of Nissan products to the UK did not begin in 1970, and there were many franchised and active dealerships in the UK before 1970.

    You might well try to split hairs about the status of these franchised dealers, and the fact that they were selling comparatively low numbers of cars in comparison to elsewhere. However, you would also need to take into account that they were operating in a market that was very competitive, and which already had a good choice of comparable products at similar prices being sold by more well-established companies that were not shipping their products half way around the world. Nevertheless, Nissan were taking the UK market seriously as part of their WORLD view - as part of a European market sector - in just the same way as they were taking territories like Finland seriously. They were NOT putting all of their eggs in one basket.

    Data? Try this for starters:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-motor-feb-71-datsun-uk-dealers-1.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-motor-feb-71-datsun-uk-dealers-2.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-motor-feb-71-datsun-uk-dealers-3.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Hi Jack:
    I know that one 432Z in Japan, was offered for sale at $75K USD. The two serious collectors that were considering it - declined. Both expressed the risk of buying a car without going personally to inspect it, the hassle with the exchange rates and transferring large amounts of money outside the US now (Homeland Security), as well as the hassle of getting the car shipped safely from Japan to the Gulf Coast here in the USA.

    Taking to them, I believe that if a solid #1 or #2 432Z with proper documentation was offered for sale here in the US, both would have been buyers in the $50K to $60K range Alan mentioned, and perhaps a bit more for the right car.
    Carl,
    I'm having great trouble in understanding just what kind of a real-world example the above case is meant to illustrate? Two "serious collectors" ( in the USA I presume? ) were "considering" a car that was being sold in Japan, but eventually did not buy it because.............. because er,............... because they would / could not travel to inspect it, transfer the money to pay for it, and the shipping was too much "hassle"?

    I'm sorry, but what does this little escapade tell us about the prices that Fairlady Z432s change hands for in Japan?! As far as I can see, it actually tells us more about the two "serious collectors" ( hereinafter to be known as the "not so serious collectors"..... ) than it does about the market in Japan. That is of course presuming that you are relating the story accurately (?)......

    It doesn't take much to jump on a 'plane to Japan ( although your "serious collectors" might need to own a valid Passport and be able to afford the few hundred Dollars for the air fare ) to go and inspect something that costs a fair chunk of anyone's money. Having to transfer money to Japan in payment for the car is a given, and people do it safely every day. It would be illegal for them to take that amount of cash into Japan by hand without declaring it on arrival - so how else were they thinking this was going to work? Shipping a car of that value from Japan to anywhere in the USA is easy, easy, easy - and certainly a lot easier to arrange, faster and cheaper than the cars that I have shipped from Japan to UK.

    The market for Fairlady Z432s is in Japan - simply because that is where all the cars are currently located. Jack - who asked the question - is in Australia. I am in England. How on earth does the aborted interest of these two "serious collectors" or your 'assessment' of a theoretical situation should such a car come up for sale in the USA have any bearing on the prices of cars that change hands in Japan?

    It has none whatsoever. It did however provide me with a good laugh on a Monday morning. For that at least, thank you!

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    Kats,

    I am with you! I will never sell my cars. Yes they might be more valuable some day but I do not care. I will still drive them. If I only wanted to make money, I would not invest in cars. Everyone knows that.

    My post #40 was so tounge-in-cheek. You guys need to lighten up!
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    Default Thread Split? Dealers

    THREAD SPLIT??

    Hi All

    Kats, what fantastic vehicles. Your efforts are truly interesting and inspirational. I really admire the passion you have for your cars and am sincerely grateful for the way you share all of your information with this forum.

    There has been a digression of discussion into the matter of dealerships around the world which is interesting and valuable to me at least but is something that might not be rediscovered by others searching the archives in future years.

    I have started a new thread for this topic and hope that the discussion might continue in a place that is easily referred to in the future. Do we think that this might be better discussed and recorded for posterity at Datsun Dealerships ?

    Hope I am operating within appropriate forum ettiquette here.
    Last edited by boyblunda; 06-11-2007 at 08:57 PM.
    Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    ,
    I'm not really sure that Nissan Motors Ltd. in Japan actually had franchised Dealerships, in the sense that we did here in America. Where large inventories of new cars were on display, large Parts Departments socked huge inventories of parts and Service Departments handled all warranty work and mechanical work after the sale.

    Perhaps you could light a candle there as well, and inform us all of the exact retail sales arrangements in Japan in 1970. Did retail salesmen really come to one's home to sell the car, or is that just an urban legend ? Did one buy their car one place, then take it elsewhere for service or repair? What was the warranty on a new car purchased in Japan?

    FWIW,
    Carl B.
    Speaking from current knowledge, and having been told that it hasn't changed much, the car buying/owning experience in Japan is much like this:

    Yes, they acutally did (and still do) come to the house to sell you a car, or you can go to the dealership and buy. My father-in-law just had a new BMW delivered to his house back in October - and they took away the old BMW trade-in too. The deal was concluded at the dining room table where the salesman turned over the keys and father handed him a stack of money 6 inches tall.

    Cars are serviced at the dealership. You can go to the one that sold you the car or any other one that you choose. You can also go to an independent garage or repair shop.

    Common parts are kept at the dealership, while other less common ones are shipped from factory warehouses. The factory warehouse in Yokohama could get me parts for the Skyline from anywhere in Japan by the next day as long as they were still available.

    As far as stores go, they're all company owned, though they may have names that reflect the area that they're located in. My Toyota was sold through Kanagawa Toypet (we lived in Kanagawa prefecture). These shops were called Tokyo Toyopet in Tokyo. Interstingly enough, you can only buy certain cars at certain shops, even though they are all one brand. NIssan has "Red Stage" and "Blue Stage" shops while Toyota has "Toyota," "Toyopet," "Netz," and "Vista" shops.

    Unlike the US, the dealerships do not have huge inventories of cars. Maybe just one of each type that they sell so that you can see, feel and smell it. The shopping is done by catalog and they call you when the car is ready. Although the car may exist in Japan somewhere, you normally can't get it for 2-3 weeks because of the registration process. In fact, they will not sell you a car if your parking space is too small. I have heard of a millionaire rice farmer who can only buy small Kei-cars because the road to his house is not wide enough for anything bigger.

    FWIW miles
    Miles

    1971 Skyline "Hakosuka"
    2002 Lexus GS 300

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    Hi Miles:
    Thanks - very interesting. Of course some information always leads to more questions.

    Most of the New Car Dealers here in the States derive a great deal of their income from their used car sales. They either retail the cars they take in on trade, or wholesale them out to other used car dealers.
    What do the New Car Dealers do with the cars taken on trade in Japan?

    You mentioned auto registration takes some time - but I understand that it also involves several different forms and amounts of taxation.

    To tie all this back to the 240-Z and 432Z:
    Since the early 50's Japan has had a tax on private vehicles, based on the engine displacement. Do you know, or can you find out, how much that tax was in 1967 - 70. It seems to have had a great impact on cars sold there with over 1499cc engines. As I understand it, it is an annual tax not just a one time penalty like our Gas Guzzler Tax on new vehicles.

    regards,
    Carl B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Most of the New Car Dealers here in the States derive a great deal of their income from their used car sales. They either retail the cars they take in on trade, or wholesale them out to other used car dealers.
    What do the New Car Dealers do with the cars taken on trade in Japan?.
    The Japanese car dealers transfer the used cars to their own used car lots and sell them; wholesale them at auction; or ship them off to some other country- Russia and China at the moment. Car values drop like rocks when a new model comes out. We lost an average of at least $50.00 a week in value when my wife decided to sell her not-quite 3 year old car after the new model came out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    You mentioned auto registration takes some time - but I understand that it also involves several different forms and amounts of taxation.
    Yes. Initial registration includes road tax, weight tax, mandatory insurance coverage that transfers with the CAR, notary fees, registration document fees, license plate fees, car disposal fees (new, since 2005), fees for the inspection forms, parking space certificate, and fees to have someone do all this for you. The car dealers make a lot of money on this service - especially at the re-registration period. Some of the fees are annual, some are one-time, and some are charged at each re-registration period (2 or 3 years).

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    To tie all this back to the 240-Z and 432Z:
    Since the early 50's Japan has had a tax on private vehicles, based on the engine displacement. Do you know, or can you find out, how much that tax was in 1967 - 70. It seems to have had a great impact on cars sold there with over 1499cc engines. As I understand it, it is an annual tax not just a one time penalty like our Gas Guzzler Tax on new vehicles.
    The fee based on engine displacement is the road tax. It is paid annually each April. The last time I checked, it was Y38,000 for an "ordinary car" with an engine displacement over 660cc, but less than 2000cc. The Japanese are very good at circumventing this tax, as my car was classed as a 3-liter, but actually displaced 2,998cc, putting it into a lower tax bracket. That being said, the Fairlady Z, with its 2000cc L-gata engine fell into the "under 2000cc" tax bracket and probably explains why the 2.4 L was not offered in Japan for a long time. I don't know what the tax may have been in 1967-70, but maybe Kats could find out.
    Miles

    1971 Skyline "Hakosuka"
    2002 Lexus GS 300

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    Hi Kats,
    Absolutely love your PS30. Have your website on my favourites list.

    As with alot of people on this forum, they would love to have a PS30. But what about JDM owners in Japan, is there a export S30 model they would like to have? E.g.the JDM did not get the American market 280z with its fuel injection, or the 260z (they did but they were recalled very quickly) to give a couple of examples. I am not asking to know whether a particular S30 model is better or worse that another, but if there was a export model (if any) that the S30 owners in Japan think reached a good mix of characteristics and/or pinncale of development? Alan and yourself have been talking on this thread about how different models handle, rev, sound, ride, and from that some sound as different as chalk and cheese.

    I hope I have explained well enough what I am trying to answer.

    Regards
    Ian
    RS30 June 1978 built 260Z (9th last)

    1965 Nissan Silvia (CSP311) the next restoration

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    Default London

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beck View Post
    Hi Kats:
    Funny - that is exactly the way I was thinking when I had my First wife.

    just kidding,
    Carl B.
    Hi Carl,I realized the same when I posted it.I have never had an experience of divorce but I really understand what you are saying.

    I will reply some,soon.

    kats

    PS.This car belongs to Mr.Len Welch KENT U.K.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010294.jpg  
    Last edited by kats; 06-27-2007 at 09:00 AM.
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
    Welcome to my web site,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903

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    Default found a new thing

    Hello,

    I did not know my Z432's ignition sw face plate is different from my 240Z.
    There is "GARAGE" insted of "OFF" on the face plate.

    I checked my Fairlady Z owner's manual,issued Nov 1969,there is a discription about ignition SW position.It says, "GARAGE" for please use when you do not need to lock the steering.This position allows you operate lighting system and horn."

    kats
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
    Welcome to my web site,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903

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    Kats,
    Thanks for the pictures, these are great, but the last file-owners.pdf, evidrntly is damaged. Acrobat won't open it.
    Will
    A Z is beautiful from any angle, I just happen to prefer to view from the drivers' seat!

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    Thanks Kats. Just when I didn't think I was going to learn anything new today. You will probably continue to notice discreet differences, and I look forward to seeing them.
    I did not have a problem with Acrobat opening the owners.pdf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kats View Post
    Hello,

    I did not know my Z432's ignition sw face plate is different from my 240Z.
    There is "GARAGE" insted of "OFF" on the face plate.

    I checked my Fairlady Z owner's manual,issued Nov 1969,there is a discription about ignition SW position.It says, "GARAGE" for please use when you do not need to lock the steering.This position allows you operate lighting system and horn."

    kats
    Hi Kats,

    My New Zealand new Datsun 240z (ie RHD general export spec) has the "GARAGE" marking too. It is a 1971 model with a chassis number just a little over 1800 with factory fender mirrors.
    76 RS30 260z 改RB26 N/A 霞
    Previous
    70 HS30-00016 240z
    72 HS30 240z L型 2.8
    71 HS30 240z L型改3.2
    79 HS130 280zx
    82 HS130 280zx T top
    2x 73 KP710 160JSSS
    74 KB210 120Y Coupe
    71 510 1600 Deluxe

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    Hi,
    First let me go back this thread a few months.

    Ian,I would like to show this.My boss in the company who loves Z like me owns this 280Z.He also spent a few years in Bakesfield CA as a cheaf instructor of the flight training.He shipped this 280Z to Japan with his returning.
    In Japan,there are not many enthusiasts of American Z.Very few there but exist.Like me,people of DATSUN 240Z fan is not many.American Z is way cheap in Japan.I am not happy with this...
    I like this big bumper,and yellow!

    Thank you Will ,geezer,
    And I wanted to put as JPG,I need to study computer...

    NZeder,
    Thank you Good information,I was wondering this "GARAGE" is only for japan or not.
    One thing I want to know,is your turn signal SW lever is Strait or Curved?

    Fairlady Z has different steering wheel which got the horn bottun is same surface as wheel.( I can not exprain well,how do you say?) 3 metal spokes are shorter than exported model,i.e. the wheel is set slightly dash side than expoted model.
    So,the JDM turn signal lever has to be strait.If it was not,your fingers could be hooked between them.

    If NZeder,your turnsignal SW lever is strait,there are prenty of space.
    If it is curved towards wheel,it will be nice to operate.I believe your wheel is exported model like my HLS30.

    Thank you,

    kats



    kats
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010043.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010045.jpg   Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432-p1010042.jpg  
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
    Welcome to my web site,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903

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    Car Guy
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    That's one nice 280!

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    Quote Originally Posted by kats View Post
    NZeder,
    Thank you Good information,I was wondering this "GARAGE" is only for japan or not.
    One thing I want to know,is your turn signal SW lever is Strait or Curved?

    Fairlady Z has different steering wheel which got the horn bottun is same surface as wheel.( I can not exprain well,how do you say?) 3 metal spokes are shorter than exported model,i.e. the wheel is set slightly dash side than expoted model.
    So,the JDM turn signal lever has to be strait.If it was not,your fingers could be hooked between them.

    If NZeder,your turnsignal SW lever is strait,there are prenty of space.
    If it is curved towards wheel,it will be nice to operate.I believe your wheel is exported model like my HLS30.

    Thank you,
    kats
    I will have a look tonight when I get home from work.

    Yesterday I visited a friend who has an Australian new 71 240z and this too has the "GARAGE" on the ignition key cover.
    76 RS30 260z 改RB26 N/A 霞
    Previous
    70 HS30-00016 240z
    72 HS30 240z L型 2.8
    71 HS30 240z L型改3.2
    79 HS130 280zx
    82 HS130 280zx T top
    2x 73 KP710 160JSSS
    74 KB210 120Y Coupe
    71 510 1600 Deluxe

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    Hi kats

    I love your 432z car, it`s very beautifull! One thing we have in common, that is the magnesium wheels that I like so much to see them!

    Very beautifull car

    Filipe Azevedo

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    Kats
    Great examples of your cars and the devotion you have to them. I really enjoy my car and once I got past the possibility of a scratch or two, I enjoy it even more. These are fun cars and should be driven. I could only imagine the thrill you must get each time you drive the 432. I would love to have one. That engine bay is just so clean and impressive, as is your 240. But that 432 engine is beyond words.

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    Kats/Everyone

    I believe my RHD car has the garage feature of the ignition switch that you speak of but, what is interesting, is that is is not shown in the Datsun 240Z Sports Owner's Manual which was supplied with the car, dated as issued 1st August 1971 (0800050) with a publication No. of oM1E-0S30G2. I am assuming that this publication was as supplied to the LHD market because on page 10 which is devoted to the instrument and controls there is a picture of the dash and the steering wheel is shown on the LH side.

    There is no hand throttle shown in this picture either, but it is shown on page 13 of the same publication under the heading of "Throttle Control Lever". "By pulling the throttle control lever backward, the engine revolution is maintained at the same rpm without depressing down the accelerator pedal. This lever is retainable in any desired position".

    The hand throttle control lever is also clearly shown in the picture on page 15 discussing the rear window electric defroster, another feature that none of our cars seem to have fitted.

    Also of interest is page 17, section titled "Driving with Manual Transmission", which shows a picture of a 5 speed shift knob and 5th gear is also listed in the table of appropriate speed range in each gear. Another anomoly but in the opposite direction!

    Hope this is of interest.

    Joseph
    09/71 Datsun 240z (Semi-retired)
    1969 Datsun 1000 (Daily Driver)

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    Default owners manual

    Hello all,and thank you everyone making good inputs here.

    I have just got out from the hospital today,I have got an acute pneumonia.
    Two weeks stay in the hospital is not so bad,I am happy I come back.

    Joseph,the manual is interesting.I believe Vintage Z program reissued 3 manuals including the same manual which you mentioned.Yes I was wondering why describing the hand throttle,/5 speeds/etc..

    I will post some unique pictures of my collection,Dec 1969 and Jan 1970 HLS30 manual.Dec 1969 mentioned about hand throttle.But Jan 1970,I can see the same printing as Dec 1969 behind a paper sheet which shows non-hand throttle illustration is attached over the original page.

    FilipeA,hello and welcome from Portugal !I enjoyed your restoration pictures tooVery nice and want to see more.I was surprised and have never knew the magnesium wheels are the same in your country!!I envy you the "D" small cap for the wheel.In Japan,Z432 does not have "D" for the cap.But can only be seen in very very early prototype Z432 has "D" for the magnesium wheel.Do you know in Japan,complete set of the wheel is expensive,like 2000$U.S. today.

    Thank you,

    kats
    Katsuhiko Endo
    1970 DATSUN 240Z
    HLS30-02156 (03/70)
    L24-005562

    1970 FAIRLADY Z432
    PS30-00088 (01/70)
    S20-000884
    JAPAN
    Welcome to my web site,
    http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903

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