Crash Test S30

[HS30-H]

Here's what happened to some of the prototypes at the Factory.

Interesting details on the car. How many differences can you spot from the final production models?

Alan T.

[2ManyZs]

What I see are the 3 "gills" for the vent on the C-pillar or is that tape or painted on......hard to tell with all the stickers on it...
and the stamped steel mag wheels... course, they may have had them elsewhere but the US only got the plain steel wheels..:disappoin
Kinda like the way the wheels look BTW, with a set of trim rings they'd be kinda neat...

Other than that, it's kinda hard to tell anything considering the condition of it...

[lordbiotree]

First off the bat the door handles are different. No quater panel emblem. Looks like the passenger side and drivers side had different door handles.
There's something funny about the rear end I cant put my finger on. Hmm maybe it's just me.
-Brandon

[lordbiotree]

Only Glass is the front windshield

[MikeW]

The slot for the rear bumper appears different. Mine is almost parallel whereas the one pictured seems quite a bit wider near the rear.

[lordbiotree]

what do the squares mean and why is there a number slightly to the left of every squar?
-Brandon

[MikeW]

Originally posted by lordbiotree
what do the squares mean and why is there a number slightly to the left of every squar?
-Brandon

I think that's just a crash test thing. It probably allows a precise measurement of deformation.

[Zedrally]

Interesting that they would crash test a shell only?

I would have thought a complete car [motor, gearbox etc] in the front end would give a better indication of how the unibody withstands a headon?

Wonder at what speed the front folded in this pic?

[Ed]

Not sure but it looks like the hood or bonnet for you English folk goes all the way to the windshield. It doesn't look like it has the cowling.

[Alfadog]

Mmm..... anything else?! Well the rear quarter window kinda looks the wrong shape, but it might just be because it's missing glass...

Also, off topic perhaps, but what's the deal with petrol flaps? I've seen lots without the lock, but mine had one, and this one seems to be made for one too. Any story?

[bryantatem]

in 72 in the US cars the PETROL (gas) flap lost the lock part and we got a lip.


My 71(late) and my 72 are different

[hmsports]

Big difference I see is that the car is much shorter up front -- maybe they just had a 2 cylinder in-line engine :classic:

Kind of looks like my first wreck...

[kats]

Hi,
I can see the steel wheels are different and these are what Mr.MATSUO told me before he wanted to put as standerd equipment for 240Z but NISSAN refused because of much higher cost.
Thanks,
kats

[Gee]

The hump in the bonnet is a lot higher.
Maybe they decided not to do that for aerodynamic reasons, or does it just make it difficult to see out of the windscreen?? Still, it looks better than that "customised" zed that someone posted a few months ago with the two fellas names on the back..

[26th-Z]

The car has no side marker lights or the cutouts for them. I enlarged the wheel and in so doing, was able to look across to see the cutouts for the shark vents.

[2ManyZs]

Not sure if it's the fuzzy pic or not, but it looks like the rockers extend lower than the production cars.'
And, I don't see an inspection lid that ought to be sticking straight up with the way the front is buckled......

BTW, Kats I like the wheels, it's a shame they didn't put them on all the cars instead of the plain steel wheels with the hubcaps... are these similar to the ones on the 432R in you photo on another post or and I seeing things?

[260z]

Does it have hatch door? I cant spot the seams. It seems that it just has rearwindow cutout but no hatch door???

[HS30-H]

Lots of good differences pointed out - well done everybody. I've been looking at this photo for a long time, and keep seeing more and more things that are strange - but some of the comments have made me look again. Great fun.

I would have thought that this crash test car WOULD have had an engine and transmission installed, or the crash test results would have been rather meaningless?

Its clear that this crash test car has many features that are different to the production specs, but its possibly a bit dangerous to comment in too much detail on the front end as its so mashed up from the impact. I think I can see an inspection lid still in its horizontal position, and its possible that the bonnet ( hood ) has overlapped the scuttle panel after impact too.

Nobody has mentioned that its another RHD prototype. I would suppose that is a large block of something heavy on the drivers seat - simulating the weight of the driver?

Here's a clearer pic of the pressed steel four-spoke wheels on one of the prototypes. They were quite different to the Magnesium wheels on the 432 ( made by Kobe Seiko ). This car has similarities and differences to the crash test car:

Alan T.

[Zedrally]

Originally posted by HS30-H

Nobody has mentioned that its another RHD prototype.
Alan T.

Huh! I knew you couldn't let that one pass.......ROFL

Further proof of the RHD Theory.....

MOM

[kats]

Hi,
This photo is from a May 1970 DATSUN 240Z service bulletin.

You can see "HL270". 270 is a "KAIHATSU-KIGOU"means development or project or pre-production code of S30.
S30 is a model name,you know.

[kats]

Hi 2ManyZs,

As Alan posted,the wheels on the test vehicle are different from actual sold model"Z-432".

Z-432's wheel is made of magnesium,so at that time owners were cautioned not to remain in solt-water.
1970 Jan magazine said 50,000yen for 1 wheel(aproximately $150 U.S.)This wheel was very expensive,now they are still expensive in yahoo auction in JAPAN.$1,000 U.S. for 4 wheels.

Thanks,
kats

[HS30-H]

Hi Kats,
Great photo!

I presume that your photo is of either a full production-spec. car - or something very close to it. It certainly looks very close to a production spec - even down to the emblems.

Its clear that the Factory would have been conducting crash-tests right through pre-production, but possibly well into production too? I wonder how many cars they tested, and whether these bodies were assigned full VIN numbers?

Fascinating!

Alan T.

[Sean Dezart]

Tucked away, I've a video of a prototype being induced to roll being pulled with a cable and another shot of a (the) crash test. On the same video there is a Japanese test driver (complete with leather helmet with ear-flaps) doing a slalom course and high speed banking !
All RHD of course !

Alan - you need to contact me re you know what from your garage !

ps hi all - it's been a while.

[Ed]

Alan, can we pick on the differences we notice on your second picture, the proto-2?

I'm wondering if it's an illusion or does the fender (wing) blend with the headlight bucket? Maybe a one piece? And what is that dark shadow by the right rear tire? Are the bumper guards larger?
Just wondering.

[2ManyZs]

It's interesting that the photo Kats posted is most likely a US spec car that was undergoing the crash tests to be certified for sale here in the US...it's a LHD model with a full interior whereas the pic Alan first posted it looks to be more of just a rolling bare chassis the factory used.
At the top of the pic that Kats posted is the MVSS or Motor Vehicle Safety Standard acronym. At that time the car would have had to have been a showroom model that was diverted from the dealer to undergo the crash tests and not a factory mule. The factory would have used "mules" or bare chassis during their testing, but for the car to be certified in the US it has to be "off the showroom floor" or what is available to the general public, to qualify for it's Federal safety standards testing(or FMVSS certification)...Of course today, they still do this testing the same way, and the Insurance Safety Institute also uses normal production cars in all their tests as well.

Thank you Kats for the clear pic of the 432 magnesium wheel, in most pics the wheels are hard to make out as the photographers usually are focusing more on the car than the wheels.
It's interesting how the pressed steel "mag" wheel design is so close to the design of the 432 wheel, it makes you wonder if the magnesium wheel was designed after the steel wheel was denied a chance to be on all the S30 cars, since they do bear some resemblance to one another.

And, there are also some other odd things on Alan's second picture, like no mirrors, no emblems.

[HS30-H]

Ed & 2Many,

The "Proto-2" pic I posted for comparison with the crash test car was actually just a mock-up.

If you look carefully, you will see nothing ( no hub, no axle ) holding the rear wheel onto the car - its just standing there.Yes, Ed. The dark shadow that you see is a prop or stand that is probably the only thing holding the rear off the ground. Well spotted. Bumper guards do look larger than the final versions too.

I don't think this is a 'clay' - I think its a little more than that - but its not really a rolling shell either. Its obviously quite a fair way before they finalised quite a few details - but getting very close to the finished shape. I have the date of the photo somewhere and I should dig it out the original again to find it..........

Did I read somewhere in an interview with Matsuo san that he initially wanted to make the whole front wing ( fender ) in one piece with the 'sugar scoop' headlamp surround incorporated into it? Can't remember where I saw that - possibly in an old Japanese magazine article. Anyway, I think I remember him saying that it could not be productionised that way and it took quite a lot of effort to get the sugar scoops made. I think this was the reason that they were initially made from FRP, and then later on they were able to make them successfully in steel. The 'sugar scoops' are a pretty complicated shape..............

2Many - those are interesting points about the MVSS etc. Now I'm wondering what crash-tests would have been necessary for other markets. Maybe some markets like the UK would have accepted the Japanese crash test results. I was also thinking that LHD and RHD cars would probably perform fairly differently from eachother in crash testing. Food for thought?

I have one of the Kobe Seiko 432 mag wheels that I will be using as the 'spare' on my 432R replica project. I can take a photo of it if you are interested. I also have 6 of the genuine Works "Rally" mags made by Kobe Seiko - which are slightly different in detail but essentially a similar design. In the mid Seventies Kobe Seiko marketed a very similar design wheel to the 432 mag and called it the "Maglloy". They crop up from time to time in Japan.

If you are interested in Nissan wheel DNA, then the links between Kobe Seiko and Nissan are very interesting. Kobe Seiko made most of Nissan's race and Sports Option wheels before the mid-Seventies, and there was a design used from mid 1973 that harked back to those wheels designed by Matsuo san on the "Proto 2" photo car. Here's a picture of one. They were SUPER wide:


Alan T.

[HS30-H]

Here's a close-up of the 432 Kobe Seiko magnesium wheel:

[lordbiotree]

Those Wheels Look Really GREAT.

Would they fit USA-Spec?
just wondering
-Brandon

[2ManyZs]

Wide? Those things are huge... what are they 10" wide?
Definately would need the over fenders for those eh?



Brandon, they would fit, if you could actually ever get your hands on a set....:disappoin And if you could afford them...:cross-eye

[Z-point]

Originally posted by HS30-H
Ed & 2Many,

I have one of the Kobe Seiko 432 mag wheels that I will be using as the 'spare' on my 432R replica project. I can take a photo of it if you are interested. I also have 6 of the genuine Works "Rally" mags made by Kobe Seiko - which are slightly different in detail but essentially a similar design. In the mid Seventies Kobe Seiko marketed a very similar design wheel to the 432 mag and called it the "Maglloy". They crop up from time to time in Japan.

Alan T.

Alan or Kats, is there any chance I cold get my hands on works rally mags?? Great finish to my car. However, what would be the price?

ps. why do you need 6 of theme?

[HS30-H]

Hi Guus,

Well, Nishi san ( super restorer in Japan who is a friend of both Kats and myself ) made a limited edition run of reproduction Rally mags a few years ago. They look exactly like the real thing, but they are Aluminium instead of Magnesium.

He still has some stock, but they are VERY expensive. Its also going to cost a lot of money to ship them, and you will get hit for Customs Duty / Import Tax and TVA too. The Japanese Yen is particularly strong in foreign exchange at the moment, so that would not help either.

If you think you would still be interested, I'll talk to Nishi san about it. I have to talk to him today anyway - so I'll ask him for his 'best' price for you. I'll let you know. Prepare for a shock and have a chair close by...............

As for your question of why I 'need' six wheels - well, I don't really 'need' six ( I can only use four on the car at one time ) but what was offered was six pieces, and having two spare does not hurt.

Alan T.

[Z-point]

That would great Alan, I’ll wait for you answer. And in the mean time I plant a money tree in my back garden, hopefully it will grow fast enough! :ermm:

[Sean Dezart]

Hey Guus,
Once you steal the wheels, you gonna steal my engine too ?

This thought made me think - how many rally cars had the cross-flow heads ? I'll start a new thread !

[26th-Z]

I found this picture on the Club S30 site and thought to add it to this thread which I thoroughly enjoyed. Try to read some of the text and you will find wheel sizes, model numbers and years?

[Z-point]

thanks Christopher,

Great info. Do you have their URL as well?

[Z-point]

Originally posted by Z-point
thanks Christopher,

Great info. Do you have their URL as well?

found it already!

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by HS30-H
Hi Guus,
If you think you would still be interested, I'll talk to Nishi san about it. I have to talk to him today anyway - so I'll ask him for his 'best' price for you. I'll let you know. Prepare for a shock and have a chair close by...............
Alan T.

Hi Guus,
I spoke to Nishi san yesterday about other matters, and while I had him on the phone I asked him about his BEST price for a set of the repro Rally Mags that he commissioned.

They are PERFECT replicas of the Rally Mags, except that they are made from Aluminium and not Magnesium. They come painted in the correct colour, and with the correct type of dome-shaped chrome wheel nuts. He told me he only has about 10 wheels left out of the initial run that he made a couple of years ago. He has no plans for a second run...............

His best price would be 60,000 Yen each - so a set of four would 240,000 Yen plus 5% Sales Tax. Then they would have to be freighted over to you from Japan, and there would be Customs Duty and TVA / Handling / Customs Clearance Fee etc.to pay on top. If you want to go for it, then let me know and I'll do my best to help.

26th-Z,
The page from the Club S30 newsletter that you posted is one of the excellent research articles written by Dr Makoto Suzuki. He has contributed some very informative and interesting articles to the newsletter, and I converse with him fairly regularly. He is a very kind and generous man.

The picture at the bottom of the page is of the "Maglloy" wheel that Kobe Seiko sold to the general public from around 1973~4. That was a modified version of the original Mag wheels seen on the Z432, and you can guess that Kobe Seiko were making use of the tooling that they had made for the Z432 wheels.
The top photo is of the original Works Rally mag wheels ( notice the cutouts in the spokes ) which were made by Kobe Seiko. The picture underneath it is of Nishi san's replica - which Dr. Suzuki uses on his car. See my pic of his car from when we visited Nissan's Zama warehouse: Dr Suzuki's car (http://www.classiczcars.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=5385&password=&sort=7&thecat=534)
There were subtle differences between the different castings of wheels and there were a couple of different wodths available at any one time.
The important points are that the Works-type Rally mag was never sold to the General Public, the Z432-type mags were offered as an option on the 432 and 432-R ( not as standard equipment ) from 1969 to 1973 and the Maglloy was produced AFTER the 432 had stopped being produced.

Alan T.

[Z-point]

Alan,

It was a shock indeed. Just wake up in the hospital, after reading your mail I lost conscious…ROFL ROFL

My god what a lot of money is that.:tapemouth But still it looks very attractive. Knowing that he has ten rims left for quit a while I think I can wait a little longer and save some money. I don’t know how but that’s my concern. There’s no way I can order them now, when I’m ready for it I’ll come back to you and hope he still have them.:disappoin

[HS30-H]

Hi Guus,
I thought you would be less than impressed. The exchange rate and the cost of freight and taxes makes it even more painful.

However, I have to say that they are PERFECT replicas of the real thing - and in many ways they are more practical and safe than the magnesium originals. Mr Nishi told me that he commissioned the tooling and stumped up the investment needed to cast the first batch at his own risk. It cost a LOT of money, and I don't think he has made much profit on them..........................

You can take some encouragement in the knowledge that you might be able to pick up a used set of Mr Nishi's replicas in the future. Quite a few owners bought them and installed them on cars, and might get bored with them and want to change or upgrade. I'll keep my eyes and ears open for you. You never know what might turn up.

A set of these would really be the finishing touch to your car wouldn't they?

Alan T.