New discovery; the story of solid/chrome Z emblem

[kats]

Hello everyone,

Today I want to share this short story about solid/chrome Z emblem.

I recently wrote an article for the CLUB S30(Japanese club) about solid/chrome Z emblem which I have been collecting since 2000.

Mr.Matsuo is an honorary member of this club, he read my article then he told us very interesting story which was previously not unveiled.

Can you guess the reason of making the chrome Z emblem?
Can you guess the reason of making the solid Z/Datsun emblem?

kats

[Mr Camouflage]

Ah yes. I have one of these solid chrome Z emblems. All I know is that they were apparently on very early cars.

Please tell us more Kats.

[26th-Z]

They made the chrome emblems because Her Majesty the 26th does not look good in white.

They made the emblems solid in the very early days because Her Majesty the 26th likes heavy jewelry.

[Mike B]

I would guess they made them solid and with a chrome Z initially because the molds were simpler to make than the indentations required for the white painted Z and the hollow back. They probably stopped making them solid to save on weight and material (expense). Maybe they went to the white Z to make the Z stand out more, so people would see it as a Z car and not specifically a 240Z? HLS30-00032 has solid chrome Zs on the quarter panels and a solid Datsun hatch emblem. The 240Z hatch emblem also has a chrome Z, but it is hollow. Have you ever seen a solid 240z hatch emblem Kats? Also, did they make Fairlady Z emblems that had chrome Zs or that were solid?

-Mike

[hls30.com]

My guess:
The master positive wasn't completely ready when the first emblems were needed, so they finished up the absolutely necessary details(mounting pins), and made a set of temporary molds for use until the master positive could be finished and a master mold made- and put into use.
Will

[geezer]

Kats, I would guess that only a limited number of these early emblems were produced initially because a final design decision had not yet been made. Another thought that comes to mind, would be the transition of production of the emblems, from a design studio to a mass production vendor.
I'm sure that there will be a different explanation for each emblem, complete with a personal flair. I look forward to the answer.

[kats]

Thank you every one, all of your answer are great, I can say all of you are correct!!(of cource Chris too:))

I do not know how many people in this thread can read Mr.Matsuo's letter but if you can, you will find there are lots of interesting facts.

The point is, Mr.Matsuo said "there was no time to paint white for the letter Z and design back of the emblem."

Sorry,I have to go for work.Will be continued soon.

kats

[Carl Beck]

I do not know how many people in this thread can read Mr.Matsuo's letter but if you can, you will find there are lots of interesting facts.

kats

Hi Kats:
Where would we see Mr. Matsuo's Letter ? Did you mean to include it in your Post?

FWIW,
Carl B.

[HS30-H]

Kats,

Last minute name changes........... ?

The 'Fairlady Z' front side and deck lid emblems ( and '432' front side and deck lid emblems ), the round 'Z' quarter panel emblems, round 'Z' bonnet emblems and 'Nissan' deck lid emblems were all finished on time.

The special emblems for the 'Fairlady Z Export Model' took a little longer...... ?

:bunny:

[26th-Z]

I took a solid chrome Z emblem to Long Beach several years ago and talked with Matsuo san about it. I'm anxious to hear what you have, Kats. BTW, I'm still working on the early advertising questions we had several weeks ago.

[HS30-H]

Today I want to share this short story about solid/chrome Z emblem.

Can you guess the reason of making the chrome Z emblem?
Can you guess the reason of making the solid Z/Datsun emblem?

I took a solid chrome Z emblem to Long Beach several years ago........

Gents,
Just in case anyone is looking 'in' from 'outside' the clique, maybe we should make it clear that what we are discussing here are the details of the '240Z' emblems that were used on the side quarter panels of the early Export cars ( as opposed to something that had just a letter 'Z' ) and also the details of the 'Datsun' scripts seen on the same cars.

The Domestic market cars had different emblems, of course. Two of them were actually a stylised letter 'Z' on a round-shaped background.......



:classic:

[hls30.com]

A picture is worth more than I car to type!
At lunch I'll take a run over to my storage place, and pull, picture, and post an early solid Quarter window 240Z emblem-though I think it would be great to have all of the S30 emblems pictured in one thread-I'll round up all of mine and start a new thread(so as not to hijack this one)-unless a search of the archives shows we already have one...
Will

[Mr Camouflage]

I thought we were talking about the Solid chrome Z on the rear hatch 240Z emblem, as opposed to the later white painted Z.

[Mike B]

Gents,
Just in case anyone is looking 'in' from 'outside' the clique, maybe we should make it clear that what we are discussing here are the details of the '240Z' emblems that were used on the side quarter panels of the early Export cars ( as opposed to something that had just a letter 'Z' ) and also the details of the 'Datsun' scripts seen on the same cars.


I thought we were talking about the Solid chrome Z on the rear hatch 240Z emblem, as opposed to the later white painted Z.

We are discussing the emblems on the early US 240Z model. The two quarter emblems and the hatch 240Z emblem all had chrome Z's (in place of the later white painted Z's). The earliest quarter emblems and the Datsun script emblem on the hatch were also solid cast instead of the later hollow cast versions. I have not seen a solid cast 240Z hatch emblem, so I am not sure if any of those were ever made.

-Mike

[26th-Z]

Just when I begin to think I don't know what I'm talking about, the fates cast their blessing on my karma. Kats is my angel... So much for the so-called "experts"!

I was searching through my files looking for that Fairlady emblem I bought from the guy in London who sold me the Datsun film from the Monte Carlo Rallye (can't find it) and I stumbled across this shot of the long lost Zulu emblem. Now, I know this is drifting from what Kats is talking about but I remember a conversation about the Zulu and here is something you are not going to see any day, let alone some days when you run into a chrome Z emblem!

First, let me post some pictures of what we are discussing - the infamous chrome Z. I'll let Kats discuss what he has learned about it. Then, the emblem that appears on the Z 432 (PS30) and I believe Alan gets credit for the photo. Finally, a photo of two prototype S30s - the targa top showing the Zulu emblem that I have been told is pure fictional lore from the "experts". I also want to point out that I have other pictures of the silver car behind the targa top car. Notice the 'D' hubcaps? This "car" is not a car at all. It is a clay. Alan, this should interest you. Notice the Nissan emblem on the quarter panel? I believe this is a round Nissan emblem, is it not? But check out the Datsun hubcaps.

[HS30-H]

We are discussing the emblems on the early US 240Z model.

Mike,
With respect, maybe you are discussing the emblems on the "early US 240Z model", but Nissan would - perhaps more accurately, and certainly more diplomatically - call them the 'early Export model emblems".

I wouldn't like to bet that all such emblems ended up being sent to the USA, any more than I would bet that all of the "first 500" HLS30s were HLS30Us......

:)

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

I was searching through my files looking for that Fairlady emblem I bought from the guy in London........

A slander on proud Londoners! If it's the fellow I'm thinking of, he certainly wasn't from London. From either the houses of York or Lancaster, as I remember........

Then, the emblem that appears on the Z 432 (PS30) and I believe Alan gets credit for the photo.

To clarify, this emblem was not applied only to the pre vented-quarter 432 & 432R, but to the Fairlady Z and Fairlady Z-L models too. They were dropped when the pillars became vented, and the tailgates became sealed.

.......the Zulu emblem that I have been told is pure fictional lore from the "experts".

:)

Notice the 'D' hubcaps? This "car" is not a car at all. It is a clay. Alan, this should interest you. Notice the Nissan emblem on the quarter panel? I believe this is a round Nissan emblem, is it not? But check out the Datsun hubcaps.

Yes, I think you are right about the 'Nissan' emblem. You can see that on some of the other clay/prototype photos, I believe. I'm motivated to go and have a look now. I seem to remember it from the high-res. clay photos that Matsuo san gave me in London (?).

Those hubcaps are - of course - C10-series Skyline hubcaps with 'D' emblems added onto the centres. Keeping the bean-counters happy, no doubt!

Cheers,
Alan T.

[Mike B]

Alan, thanks for the correction. I should have said North American models, since my understanding is that all 1969/early 1970 production 240z export models went to the US and Canada. If that is not correct, what other countries received them?

My intent was just to clarify that the chrome Zs were on both the quarter emblems AND the 240z hatch emblem, since you omitted that in your post and Mr Camouflage thought we were ONLY discussing the chrome 240Z emblem on the hatch.

-Mike

[HS30-H]

Further to what Chris was talking about,
'NISSAN' logo quarter / pillar emblems, on a clay and on a prototype or pre-production S30:

[geezer]

The emblem seen on this prototype with the steep windscreen rake doesn't show up very well. I always thought it said NISSAN. Is that the same as the one in your S30 prototype pic Chris? I think this was possibly the earliest, even before the body design was finalized.

[HS30-H]

Alan, thanks for the correction. I should have said North American models, since my understanding is that all 1969/early 1970 production 240z export models went to the US and Canada. If that is not correct, what other countries received them?

Hi Mike,
A few very early production HLS30s were sent to Europe ( arriving in Belgium and Holland ) for road testing and evaluation. One of them took part in the 1970 Geneva motor show. More than one of them ( at least two, and maybe more ) became test mules for the European rally program.

When talking about early production '240Zs' it is also worth remembering the HS30s ( ie - RHD ) that we know Nissan made amongst the very first pre-production and production cars.

Cheers,
Alan T.

[26th-Z]

Oh! Well, kick him out of London why don't ya! Is your first picture from Matsuo san? I have the same image - not cropped, of course.

I believe the emblem says Nissan, yes. I think all of our pictures of the silver prototype are of the same prototype taken on a roof top plaza.

[HS30-H]

The close-ups were an attempt to focus on the 'Nissan' logo. Failed.

I think Matsuo san gives the same photos to different people and tells them they have an 'exclusive'........ :)

Do you want to expand on the Z signal flag emblem seen on the red Targa prototype? Do you reckon it was on the cards to actually be used....?

To go back to Kats' original question, I still think the big point is that they were working on certain emblems right down to the wire, when they should have had plenty of time to finalise them. That points - I think - to last minute changes.

We already know that the '240' part of '240Z' was something that came quite late, don't we? I think the rear hatch / deck lid 'Datsun' emblem was a last-minute change too - yes?

[kats]

Thank you,thank you everyone.
I am now in L.A. no lap top in my room,I have to pay crazy expensive money for the hotel business center.

I will post a letter from Mr.Matsuo, Carl.

Alan,that is right,last minute change is the point. I was wondering why Fairlady's embelms have withe Z from the begining of production? And this is just my guess,I think there is no solid emblem for Fairlady cars.(I need to ask and confirm this Mr.Matsuo soon)

Emblems for the Fairlady cars were settle down already well before the production,but for the Export model,Mr.K refused Fairlady's emblem and he wanted somthing alternative ("Datsun 240Z")
Nissan had to settle down about emblem,the car was about to be assembled in the production line...

I think this is not new for us is not it? However this is the key of existing Chrome/solid Export piller emblem and rear deck DATSUN emblem.

As Mr.Matsuo said, no time to paint,no time to hollow the back for the Export cars.
So,the letter "Z" was surposed to be painted white when the Export name had settled down I think, simply no time to do first.
On the other hand, Fairlady's emblems were hollowed and painted white Z from the bigining.
We have never seen/found solid/chrome Z for the Fairlady cars in Japan.

Chris,the cray model of S30,you can see big picture in my website.
AND please NOTE that the pillar round emblem,that is painted YELLOW and BLACK and RED and NAVYBLUE for the outer circle of the emblem.That is came from ZULU flag that you mentioned.

kats

[HS30-H]

Alan,that is right,last minute change is the point.

Emblems for the Fairlady cars were settle down already well before the production,but for the Export model,Mr.K refused Fairlady's emblem and he wanted somthing alternative ("Datsun 240Z")
Nissan had to settle down about emblem,the car was about to be assembled in the production line...

Kats,
I'm thinking that the name of the Export model was not the main problem here, as we can see that the '240Z' name was already being attached to one of the LHD Export pre-production / prototype cars in late 1968~early 1969.......

Matsuo and his team would be needing to make sure that all the different Domestic and Export emblems would fit into the same holes on the bodies ( for obvious logistical reasons relating to production ) so I can imagine that factor needed to be decided quite early(?).

Please see the attached pictures, which came from the Miki Press 'Fairlady Z Story' book. It is obvious from the photos that the '240Z' and 'Datsun' names had been thought of already, but the quarter panel emblem shape is not yet finalised ( from the fake 'vent', and the '240Z' script lacking it's round centre backing...... ). We can't see the tailgate 'Datsun' italic script.

I think we still have not really got to the bottom of this story that we have all heard, where Katayama is said to have protested at the 'Fairlady' part of the car's name. Exactly when and how this happened still seems unclear, and I have certainly never believed the story that Katayama was personally taking 'Fairlady' emblems off of S30-series cars as they arrived in the USA. That may have been possible with some SP/SR models, but I can't believe it happened on the S30.

Anyone care to comment on that?



Alan T.

[26th-Z]

The 240Z emblem appears on the export model shown at the Tokyo Auto Show in 1969. Time line help please. Wasn't this about the same time that the North American Testing was done? October 1969?

[geezer]

Actual events may have been blown out of proportion, but Katayama's protests to the "Fairlady" label, and maybe more importantly, the opposing opinion, could very well be reasons for a belated decision and delay of the mass production of the later white Z version. It would be a more likely story, that Katayama was down at the dock putting the new versions on cars that had none at all.

It does appear that 240Z was the predominant plan.

All the pictures I have seen of Nissan quarter panel assemblies have had the mounting holes pre-drilled, which would seem to support the practice of the drilling being done before assembly. Therefore, I would agree on the need of standardized mounting pins for all models. We know the mounting points are the same for the solid and later versions.

With what Kats has told us of Mr. Matsuo's explanation, I have to stick with my original guess. Maybe the letter goes into more detail?

Edit: The rear plate on the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show Export Model, could be an indication of a "lack of decision" at that point in time?

[HS30-H]

The 240Z emblem appears on the export model shown at the Tokyo Auto Show in 1969. Time line help please. Wasn't this about the same time that the North American Testing was done? October 1969?

Tokyo Auto Show opened its doors to the general public on 24th October 1969. There was a 'press preview' of the cars on Nissan premises in Ginza, Tokyo on 18th October.

[HS30-H]

It does appear that 240Z was the predominant plan.

In what way?

All the pictures I have seen of Nissan quarter panel assemblies have had the mounting holes pre-drilled, which would seem to support the practice of the drilling being done before assembly. Therefore, I would agree on the need of standardized mounting pins for all models. We know the mounting points are the same for the solid and later versions.

The emblem mounting holes were in the panels before they were painted. When you bought a new panel, it came with the 'universal' emblem mounting holes already in it.

Exception would be - in the domestic market - when you ordered a car with the rear spoiler option. Then the car was supplied without the pre-drilled emblem holes in the tailgate. Add a spoiler later and you'd have emblem mounting holes to fill.......

Edit: The rear plate on the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show Export Model, could be an indication of a "lack of decision" at that point in time?

As far as Nissan were concerned, the '240Z' was the 'Fairlady Z Export Model'.

[Mr Camouflage]

We are discussing the emblems on the early US 240Z model. The two quarter emblems and the hatch 240Z emblem all had chrome Z's (in place of the later white painted Z's). The earliest quarter emblems and the Datsun script emblem on the hatch were also solid cast instead of the later hollow cast versions. I have not seen a solid cast 240Z hatch emblem, so I am not sure if any of those were ever made.

-Mike


Well, I own one, so yes they were made.

Disclaimer: if by solid cast you mean the Z is flat and chrome like the numbers 2,4, & 0. I gather by hollow cast, you mean the standard recessed Z emblem.

Maybe a picture will explain it better:

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8081&d=1116055084

[Mike B]

Well, I own one, so yes they were made.

Disclaimer: if by solid cast you mean the Z is flat and chrome like the numbers 2,4, & 0. I gather by hollow cast, you mean the standard recessed Z emblem.


No, by solid cast I mean the back side of the emblem is completely solid, not hollow. I would need to see a picture of the back of your emblem to tell if it is solid cast or not. I think there are pictures of 26thZ's solid 240z quarter panel emblem in another thread somewhere, but I couldn't find it right away. I'm posting pictures of a solid cast Datsun rear deck emblem. I have some solid cast quarter panel emblems at home, so I can post a picture tonight if need be.

-Mike

[geezer]

Alan: Maybe I don’t understand your line of thought on this first point, you question. Do you contend that there was no other quarter panel emblem design up for consideration for export to North America? You did submit as your guess, “last minute name changes”…. and not, the last minute change to go with the 240Z (in white) emblem, instead of the solid version. They both say 240Z. If so, that’s where we differ in opinion. I believe the decision was not, what version of the 240Z emblem to go with, but a completely different medallion design that was up for consideration, whatever that may have been. Hope that explains my belief of "240Z" being the "predominant plan". I think the solid version is nothing more than a prototype design, in need of refinement, that was used up early in production, before the later ones were mass produced.

We are in agreement on the pre-drilled status of the quarter panels. I would say they were not only drilled before being painted, but before they were even spot welded to the floor assembly, as opposed to being done on the metal line, like was done as you mentioned in the case of the liftgate drilling, where a build sheet would have to be consulted to see if a rear spoiler was called for. A clear indication of the “universal intent” of emblem attachment. That is why I noted all the photos I’ve seen of replacement quarter panel assemblies, have the holes.

And the third point, relating to “As far as Nissan were concerned, the ‘240Z’ was the ‘Fairlady Export Model’. Yes, that is the way it came about, but going full circle, I’m left wondering if ‘240Z’ was a carved in stone acronym for “Fairlady Export Model” at the time.
Like you, I think there is more to this story than what has been revealed. Mr Matsuo’s letter will undoubtedly leave us with unanswered questions, but perhaps, one day in the future more will be known. I think, out of respect, on the part of the principal figures much will never be said. But, you know what...a little mystery is what has me hooked.:classic:

[Mike B]

I found a picture of the back of a solid cast early 240z quarter panel emblem in an old thread. I think this is Kats' picture.

So, back to my original question. We have seen solid cast Datsun hatch emblems and solid cast 240z quarter panel emblems, but does anyone have a solid cast 240z hatch emblem with the chrome Z???

-Mike

[Mike B]

I was searching through my files looking for that Fairlady emblem I bought from the guy in London who sold me the Datsun film from the Monte Carlo Rallye (can't find it) and I stumbled across this shot of the long lost Zulu emblem.

Chris, is this the Fairlady emblem picture you were looking for? I found it posted by you in an old thread and you indicated it was from the guy in London that you got the film from.

-Mike

[geezer]

I apologize if this question has been addressed or answered previously. I did a fair amount of research and learned quite a bit from earlier discussions, but cannot find an answer or opinions pertaining to the early home market B post emblems.

What exactly is the difference between the LH and RH sides of the early non-vented B post emblems used on the home market models? Appearance, mounting?

That’s the only question I have, but would like to hear opinions on these thoughts.

These early home market B post emblems would definitely seem out of place today, but if they were used from the start, in the production of the North American destined models, would you in any way associate the emblem with “Fairlady”?
Do you think Mr. Katayama was opposed to this emblem, because he wanted an absolute division between the different markets?
I can see the justification of opposing the sharing of the front fender emblems and the liftgate emblems (obvious), but not an emblem adorned with only a stylized Z. It was only a short time later that the stylized Z was brought into play anyhow. This makes me think that the only reason for deciding to go with “240Z” was the fact that they had 2500 of them on hand and decided to use them up and then have the remainder needed mass produced, to finish up the run, without a midstream change.
I initially thought that I would not consider the use of the early home market B post emblem on a North American car a name change, if the “240Z” emblem was retained on the liftgate, but have mixed thoughts.
The guys in the advertising department must have been fit to be tied, in some of these situations.

[26th-Z]

Hey thanks for my picture! I'll be damned if I can find it on my computer! Could be the sweltering steam of August has my brain on half throttle. As I recall, I was so happy to have a metal script Fairlady without the Z because all the Fairladys I had seen had big white Zs. But this brings me to a point I would like to make about the Z. I suspect the Z was always part of the car. Whether it was a Fairlady or a 240, it was always a Z.

Consider the Zulu. Reference page 46 of Brian Long’s “Datsun Z”. “The targa prototype was trimmed in black leather – the flag on the rear quarter was Katayama’s idea (it’s the naval flag that represents the letter Z).”

Studio Sport '70 was working on a design referenced as the Sport Z. Alan, can you confirm the Japanese use of the word "sport" in name descriptions of the S30? We all know that Matsuo's design team was working on a sport replacement for the roadster SP311 – the latest in a long line of sport designs beginning with the DC-3. I suspect the Z represents the connotation of an ambitious design team. “Presenting the ultimate sports car”.

Then I would consider that Mr. Katayama already had a Fairlady and wanted something new to market without the old association attached to the roadster. Consider his relationship with Katsuji Kawamata, Nissan’s president who named the Fairlady after the Broadway musical, “My Fair Lady”. We know Mr. Katayama was very brand oriented evidenced by the replacement of the Fairlady Z emblem on the front wings with the brand name Datsun. Reference Long again pages 58 and 59; “The Z in America”. That is Katayama marketing at its finest. “The 240Z represents the imaginative spirit of Nissan… Our product reflects the rapid advancement of our company… It will be the beginning of a new romance for true car lovers who believe that motoring is more than just a commute”.

I am more than confident that the 240Z emblem we are discussing is the result of an insistence on a very brand oriented, market identifiable, “signature.” It wasn’t just a Z or the tired Fairlady. It was a Datsun 240-Z Sport.

[HS30-H]

Ron,
I have a lot of catching up to do, as you have posed a lot of questions since I last logged on. Please excuse me chopping up your posts into quotes in order to answer the points you have made.

Do you contend that there was no other quarter panel emblem design up for consideration for export to North America? You did submit as your guess, “last minute name changes”…. and not, the last minute change to go with the 240Z (in white) emblem, instead of the solid version. They both say 240Z. If so, that’s where we differ in opinion.

First of all, I'm trying to take the factory line - and I won't ( can't! ) single out the North American market sector on this emblems subject when the factory were covering USA/Canada under their 'Export model' umbrella. I also believe that the '240Z' emblems - in all shapes and forms - were never intended exclusively for the North American market, even though that's pretty much all we ever hear about them.

I honestly don't know what the timeline was in respect to these "last minute name changes", but I have the impression that most of the vernacular we hear and read about Katayama's rejection of the 'Fairlady' name for the S30-series is only one side of the story, and apocryphal into the bargain. We can see that emblems saying '240Z' were being placed on prototypes as far back as 1968 - in which case you'd think that a finalised production design for such an emblem could easily have been finished before hundreds of cars started roling down the line at Nissan Shatai in October, November and December of 1969 ( and later? ). What does this signify? Surely only that the details of the '240Z' emblem design were not finalised in time, but why? My guess is that there must have still been some kind of indecision going on, as I can't imagine any other scenario........

As for the details of that 'Z' in the Export '240Z' emblems - as far as I understand it, what we are calling the 'solid chrome Z' and 'non-recessed' emblems were only prototypes, and were never supposed to have made it onto finished cars sold to the general public. So I don't believe that this was indecision based around which version of the 'Z' ( 'solid chrome' or 'white filled' ) should be used on the '240Z' emblem. I think Kats has settled that point with Matsuo san ( see below ).

I believe the decision was not, what version of the 240Z emblem to go with, but a completely different medallion design that was up for consideration, whatever that may have been. Hope that explains my belief of "240Z" being the "predominant plan".

When you wrote that you saw the '240Z' pillar emblem as the "predominant plan", my immediate reaction was that it clearly wasn't! I'd say that the dominant plan - as far as most of the design and engineering of the emblems was concerned - was centred around the Domestic market models. We don't see any last minute changes to their emblems or model naming, and they appear to have been settled quite early. Certainly well in time for volume production of over 1000 cars before the end of 1969........

I see several different designs of pillar emblems on the clays and prototypes, and I'd love to know which was the favourite up until this last minute change we are talking about. Was it the 'Nissan' logoed round emblem ( surely not for Export models? ), was it the letter 'Z'-signifying nautical signal flag design that Chris is calling the 'Zulu' flag, or perhaps the shield shaped emblem that we can barely make out on some of the clays? Don't know.

I think the solid version is nothing more than a prototype design, in need of refinement, that was used up early in production, before the later ones were mass produced.

I believe Matsuo san has confirmed this in his discussions with Kats. Kats will - I think - have been talking to him specifically about the earliest '240Z' emblems and the story surrounding them, and I wonder whether Matsuo san was focusing on just that aspect of the story - when the wider topic of all the emblems might have given a fuller answer? Now I want to ask him some questions from a different angle.......

And the third point, relating to “As far as Nissan were concerned, the ‘240Z’ was the ‘Fairlady Export Model’. Yes, that is the way it came about, but going full circle, I’m left wondering if ‘240Z’ was a carved in stone acronym for “Fairlady Export Model” at the time.

This is my point. The Export model could have been called anything, but as far as Nissan as a corporate entity were concerned that anything - and for all the different Export territories they sold cars into - was always going to be an 'Export Model' of their 'Fairlady Z'. This happened with pretty much all of their different models and series of cars and trucks too. I think it's a quite natural viewpoint. It's not a premeditated political stance intended to make anybody think of a commercial product in a certain way, or something written by advertising copywriters as part of a sales campaign.

[HS30-H]

Chris, is this the Fairlady emblem picture you were looking for? I found it posted by you in an old thread and you indicated it was from the guy in London that you got the film from.

Mike ( I think you know this Chris ),
That's the post-October '71 'Fairlady' script emblem ( part no. 63805-E8725 ) that was introduced for the Domestic market L24-engined models ( Fairlady 240Z, Fairlady 240Z-L & Fairlady 240ZG ), and was placed before the '240Z' emblem to make a 'Fairlady 240Z' reading pair. This is the type that is fitted to my 240ZG. I don't think they fit into any conversation regarding truly early S30-series Z emblems.......

Chris, you will remember the gent that sold it to you told you that it had come from a particular 'works' 240Z rally car. This is - of course - impossible. First of all, it is from the wrong year for that particular car and secondly we know what emblems that car was wearing when it first arrived in the UK.

Did I mention that he's most definitely not from London....... :knockedou

[HS30-H]

........but cannot find an answer or opinions pertaining to the early home market B post emblems.

What exactly is the difference between the LH and RH sides of the early non-vented B post emblems used on the home market models? Appearance, mounting?

Ron,
I've stuck a pair of these on my project car now - so it's a bit late to start taking detail photos of them ( wish I had now ).

Yes they are handed left and right, but the difference is very subtle. I know that there is a difference in the mounting pin positioning, but I also recall ( but don't quote me on this ) that there is a slight difference in thickness between the forward-facing parts and rearward-facing parts on both sides. There's only one way for the 'Z' logo to be up, but I've seen them mounted upside down on a few cars - which is certainly the owner's mistake.

Unless anyone else has some handy I shall have to take them off my car to satisfy my curiosity now. They are different part numbers for left and right.

These early home market B post emblems would definitely seem out of place today, but if they were used from the start, in the production of the North American destined models, would you in any way associate the emblem with “Fairlady”?
Do you think Mr. Katayama was opposed to this emblem, because he wanted an absolute division between the different markets?

Maybe I'm biased, but the early Domestic 'Z' pillar emblems seem far more suited to the car than the '240Z' pillar emblems seen on the Export cars. No - I would NOT see any connection to the 'FairladyZ' name seen elsewhere on the Domestic cars and I think you are quite right to wonder how Katayama ( or anyone else ) could have objected to them. You could say the same thing about the 'Z' bonnet ( hood ) emblem of the Domestic cars too; I think it looks infinitely more suited to a sports / GT car than the maker's brand ( whether Nissan or Datsun ).

A conscious effort at market version division by Katayama ( and whoever else )? Quite certainly possible. I'm also thinking of the 'NISSAN' logo emblem seen on the left side of the tailgate ( or spoiler, where fitted ) on Domestic cars, and also the 'Fairlady Z' glovebox lid emblem which was seen as 'Datsun 240Z' on Export models........

I can see the justification of opposing the sharing of the front fender emblems and the liftgate emblems (obvious), but not an emblem adorned with only a stylized Z. It was only a short time later that the stylized Z was brought into play anyhow. This makes me think that the only reason for deciding to go with “240Z” was the fact that they had 2500 of them on hand and decided to use them up and then have the remainder needed mass produced, to finish up the run, without a midstream change.
I initially thought that I would not consider the use of the early home market B post emblem on a North American car a name change, if the “240Z” emblem was retained on the liftgate, but have mixed thoughts.
The guys in the advertising department must have been fit to be tied, in some of these situations.

I'm also wondering what was the hold up with the 'Datsun' script emblems for the tailgate on the Export cars? Surely the use of the 'Datsun' name would have been settled well in advance of launch? Is this indicative of a last-minute swap from some other emblem or positioning?
Wouldn't only be the advertising guys that would be held up by all this either. I'm thinking of all the literature that went along with the Export cars ( owners manuals, workshop manuals, servicing data etc etc ) needing to be finalised before printing - although it seems to have been achieved by late 1969.........

[HS30-H]

Studio Sport '70 was working on a design referenced as the Sport Z. Alan, can you confirm the Japanese use of the word "sport" in name descriptions of the S30?

Yes, although not consistently. There's such a lot of different Japanese literature covering that late '69 / early '70 period, and only some of it uses the 'Sport' or 'Sports' tag after the 'Fairlady Z' name......

For example - and perhaps somewhat curiously - the JAF/FIA homologation papers for the 'S30' & 'S30-S' models ( a different homologation to the 'PS30' & 'PS30-SB', and to the 'H(L)S30' ) describe the name of the car as 'Datsun Sports Z S30', and manufacturer as 'Nissan'.

You can see the word 'Sport' tagged onto the cars in the literature and coverage, but it does not seem to be applied as though it is much more than a description of the sector it might fit into........

I am more than confident that the 240Z emblem we are discussing is the result of an insistence on a very brand oriented, market identifiable, “signature.” It wasn’t just a Z or the tired Fairlady. It was a Datsun 240-Z Sport.

There was a prototype 'SPORTS' emblem that didn't(?) make it onto production Export models, wasn't there? Seen in that nice Feb.'70 issue of Car Graphic magazine:

[26th-Z]

Oh thanks for that reminder photo, Alan. And per some of your comments about 240Z branding, I posted pictures of brochures for export markets other than the U.S. and Canada. We need to do some research and come up with a picture of the shield emblem you talk about.

Thanks to Kats for starting yet another great conversation.

[geezer]

Thanks for the great summation Chris. Marketing was what Mr. Katayama was all about and it seems he was unfaltering in his efforts to establish a unique, recognizable, acceptable by the masses, roll off the tongue brand name to introduce a new model. The more I think about it, and the more I get enlightened by you guys, it is becoming more clear to me that the 240Z was “so much so” a distinctly different product than was built for the home market, yet so closely related, it really did need a different first name. Most of us, if we were put into Mr. Katayama’s position, would recognize the importance of this. 240Z is as good a name as any that I could dream up.

Alan, I’m sorry for falling into the “North American” market trap. Export market really is much more appropriate terminology and I will certainly try to embed this into my conscience.
One more thing about the early chrome/solid 240Z B post emblem that doesn’t set right with me is; if there was an original intent of using the later, refined, white inlayed 240Z B post emblems for the production launch, why did they have enough of the chrome/solid ones to outfit 2500 cars?
I have wondered about some of the early literature and the oddities found in some of the early brochures. It is evident that decisions were being made on the roll and at a very fast pace, especially for a new launch. It makes me think that another additional model may have been in the planning, for the export market, early on, but had the brakes put on it when the overwhelming demand became apparent.
Please, fight the urge to remove the quarter emblems from your project car. It’s not important, but it seems the theory of “universal emblem mounting holes” went right out the window if the pins are oriented differently. Did you have to re-drill to mount yours?

Kats, thanks for the great topic. I’m sure we are all looking forward to more detail from Mr. Matsuo’s letter. Very interesting.

[Mike B]

Mike ( I think you know this Chris ),
That's the post-October '71 'Fairlady' script emblem ( part no. 63805-E8725 ) that was introduced for the Domestic market L24-engined models ( Fairlady 240Z, Fairlady 240Z-L & Fairlady 240ZG ), and was placed before the '240Z' emblem to make a 'Fairlady 240Z' reading pair. This is the type that is fitted to my 240ZG. I don't think they fit into any conversation regarding truly early S30-series Z emblems.......


Did I mention that he's most definitely not from London....... :knockedou

Alan, the only reason I posted the picture of the Fairlady emblem is because Chris said he was looking for it earlier in the thread and I came across it yesterday while searching for a picture of the solid cast emblem. Yes, we are all VERY clear that you can confirm without a doubt that the guy that Chris got the emblem from is NOT from London. The only reason I repeated that is because it is how Chris identified the picture he was looking for.

-Mike

[Mike B]

Ron,
I'm also wondering what was the hold up with the 'Datsun' script emblems for the tailgate on the Export cars? Surely the use of the 'Datsun' name would have been settled well in advance of launch? Is this indicative of a last-minute swap from some other emblem or positioning?
Wouldn't only be the advertising guys that would be held up by all this either. I'm thinking of all the literature that went along with the Export cars ( owners manuals, workshop manuals, servicing data etc etc ) needing to be finalised before printing - although it seems to have been achieved by late 1969.........

Yes, let's not forget that the "Export" 240z also had Datsun hood and front fender emblems that were not solid cast, so following the logic of this thread, they were not a last minute change. Then why was the rear hatch Datsun script initially solid cast?

-Mike

[Mike B]

I posted pictures of brochures for export markets other than the U.S. and Canada.

Chris, unless they used the same brochure in other countries, the first picture you posted is a Canadian brochure.

-Mike

[26th-Z]

I think you're right, Mike. The orange one is from Norway and I think I have this picture mis-labeled.

[26th-Z]

I was cruising through Kats' site and following some of his links to other sites. Quite a lot of fun, actually. Most everything is in Japanese which requires some blind clicking without knowing where it will lead to. I stumbled upon a site with pictures of emblems. From what I can understand from the pictures, there are at least two different castings of the Fairlady Z emblem and three of the 432. Evidently, the red paint on the 432 emblem comes in three different shades. This seems to have taken place over a production span between 1969 and 1971.

[HS30-H]

Marketing was what Mr. Katayama was all about and it seems he was unfaltering in his efforts to establish a unique, recognizable, acceptable by the masses, roll off the tongue brand name to introduce a new model. The more I think about it, and the more I get enlightened by you guys, it is becoming more clear to me that the 240Z was “so much so” a distinctly different product than was built for the home market, yet so closely related, it really did need a different first name. Most of us, if we were put into Mr. Katayama’s position, would recognize the importance of this. 240Z is as good a name as any that I could dream up.

Ron,
I think the really clever marketing / product identity bit is that stylised letter 'Z'....... I'm not talking about the spoken "Zee" or "Zed", or even "Zet-to" - but just what that graphic device looks like. A small stroke of genius in car branding, without wishing to overstate it.

'Fairlady' I could live without. Doesn't really move me one way or another, but some people seem to have an almost pathological antipathy towards it - which, inverted, can turn it into a badge of honour I suppose. I even had one guy look at my ZG at a show and tell me that he thought 'Fairlady' sounded "gay". Looks like Katayama thought so too? :)

'240' - for which most of us say "two forty" - doesn't seem all that clever to me. As a marker of engine capacity it seems somewhat obscure. Is that two hundred and forty Decilitres? I guess '2400' would not have scanned so well. It kind of lays a trap for subsequent models or updates, in that expectations are that numbers will rise as time goes on - which may not always be feasible or necessary. Personally, when thinking of model and series, I think we end up with too many numbers anyway.

Please, fight the urge to remove the quarter emblems from your project car. It’s not important, but it seems the theory of “universal emblem mounting holes” went right out the window if the pins are oriented differently. Did you have to re-drill to mount yours?

No no no, the point is that my project car ( mid-1970 'S30' Fairlady Z-L becoming replica 'PS30-SB' Fairlady Z432-R ) always did have the early Domestic market solid round 'Z' pillar emblems. I didn't need to do any re-drilling. My project car came to me missing many items, and the early Domestic pillar emblems are not all that easy to find these days - hence the time it took to find them. However, they pop straight into the same two mounting holes on each side that the early Export '240Z' emblem pushes into. My point being that the Domestic and Export emblems are interchangeable, because the mounting holes and their positions are the same.

The pins are the same distance apart side-to-side ( allowing you to put them on the wrong side ) but the emblems themselves are - I believe - not completely symmetrical. Hence the LH and RH markings and part numbers.

[geezer]

[QUOTE=HS30-H;264681]Ron,
I think the really clever marketing / product identity bit is that stylised letter 'Z'....... I'm not talking about the spoken "Zee" or "Zed", or even "Zet-to" - but just what that graphic device looks like. A small stroke of genius in car branding, without wishing to overstate it.QUOTE]


I would agree with that totally, but the problem in the United States and Canada, would have been what could be seen as something more than a slight conflict with the Z28 Camaro. By the time the first S30 hit the docks in America, Z28s were already extreemly popular cars and even had slang references already in widespread use. The Z28 was refered to as both "ZEE 28" and "ZED 28". It developed into just "ZED", but curiously not just "ZEE".

Z28 was derived by the folks at GM before the 1968 model year. In 1967 when ordering the power option, the RPO code was Z27. This gave you the 302 engine that met the specs required for SCCA racing (under 305 cu.in). So, using the natural number progression in 1968 they utilized Z28 to badge this version of Camaro. Nobody, not even Mr Katayama, would attempt to compete for brand recognition with the Z28.
It was already a very popular practice to assign numbers or a combination of letters and numbers to performance cars and I think that's why "240Z" was chosen.
The stylized Z positioned on the quarter panel wouldn't have been a bad choice in my opinion but being the visual "premium piece of real estate" on the car, Mr Katayama probably wanted to claim it for his market identity.

[kats]

Thank you everyone,this thread is very hot and heavy to read for me,but very very interesting.I think we are going deep even Mr.Matsuo/Mr.Katayama can not remember these old days.Anyway,the first thing which comes up in Mr.Matsuo's mind is "No time to do that because Mr.Katayama refused Fairlady name"

I agree it is not easy to exprain by one word,there must be lots of stories running through from different angles.
I will give a call Mr.Matsuo and ask one by one.

kats

[geezer]

Kats, the statements from Mr Matsuo do answer the questions you asked at the start of this thread. I agree that everyone touched on the correct answer, but think Will came up with the best descriptive answer to explain the process and actions that had to be taken and it seems that none of this comes as a surprise to Alan or perhaps others, but does confirm suspicions.
Naturally, we are left now with more questions, but maybe not of the type that Mr. Matsuo can or would be comfortable answering. His involvement or interest in the reasoning behind Mr. Katayama's objections of using the "Fairlady" name was probably limited. I'm sure he and his team were much too busy with their own daily challenges to be concerned with this objection/decision chain of events, and a timeline would be difficult to nail down after so many years, by relying on memory alone.
You are correct in pointing out the difficulty of recalling events that took place so long ago. I can tell you from personal experience that one model year to the next and the shear volume of different models and the many variances thereof become a jumbled blur. Mr. Matsao would need time to reflect back so far, in order to provide answers to any questions. We are lucky and grateful that he has shared his knowledge and experiences and also that you have passed this information on to us. Thank you.

Alan, thanks for your patience and explanation of the early domestic market B post emblems. I did have a problem understanding how left & right side specific emblems with different mounting pin locations could be interchanged with the export market version…but now I got it.

[kats]

Thank you geezer,

I have lots of things to discuss.What am I doing first?
This is a scan from Mr.Matsuo's letter.

Mike,I also thinking about solid(not hollowed) emblem for rear deck 240Z and fender DATSUN and hood DATSUN.

I guess quater emblem and rear deck DATSUN are only one for the solid type.
Seems to me these two were not settle down untile the end of design study.

Also,I guess emblems for Fairlady cars are all hollowed type with white Z painted because they are finished well before the production.

kats