Scarab on eBay?

[Mike B]

It looks like this may be an original Scarab on eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Datsun-Z-Series-1-OF-18-1976-DATSUN-Z-ORIGINAL-CALIFORNIA-SCARAB-CAR-153_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6187QQihZ012QQitemZ 220267073326QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Sounds like it doesn't have the original engine installed by Scarab, though. Not sure how that effects the value, or even what the value of these cars are.

-Mike

[hls30.com]

Lots of post scarab-conversion changes, a seriously modded scarab-I wouldn't think it would be as valuable as one that is "un-fooled-around" with, but Vicky(ZRUSH) is the only one I know restoring a scarab...
Will

[Mike B]

I wonder if Vicky's is the one they list as #189 in Florida in this ad.

-Mike

[Danglybanger]

Sounds like it doesn't have the original engine installed by Scarab, though. Not sure how that effects the value, or even what the value of these cars are.

-Mike

...It would mean that I could then feel guiltless over pulling it for an L28 (maybe with a turbo to make use of the boost guage), but then again I'm a pedant and a snob :smoke:

[JonnyRock]

Looking @ that Nissan door tag made me cringe. Z's gained 1000lbs in less than 8 years!

[26th-Z]

Here's a picture of a real one to compare the eBay car to. I only have this one picture.

[sblake01]

Looking @ that Nissan door tag made me cringe. Z's gained 1000lbs in less than 8 years!That's the GVWR. The GVWR includes the net weight of the vehicle, plus the weight of passengers, fuel, cargo and any additional accessories, as opposed to the curb weight which is the weight of a fueled automobile with standard equipment but without cargo or passengers. If you compare curb weights, the difference between a 240 and a 280 is about 380-500 lbs depending on the years compared.

[bigoak]

Neat car. I'm not a huge fan on V8 swaps, but the Scarab just seems more acceptable for some reason. Probably the fact that it maintained the original hood line.

This one looks quite nice.

Any guess at reserve / selling price?

[Walter Moore]

That's the GVWR. The GVWR includes the net weight of the vehicle, plus the weight of passengers, fuel, cargo and any additional accessories, as opposed to the curb weight which is the weight of a fueled automobile with standard equipment but without cargo or passengers. If you compare curb weights, the difference between a 240 and a 280 is about 380-500 lbs depending on the years compared.

I'll buy that. The listed max load capacity of my 71 is 420 lbs. (Which almost makes it a one person car... ) Rule of thumb is that a "series 2" (Forgive me those who know better) weighs about 2400 lbs. (curb weight)

So 2400 + 420 is 2840, which is 383 less than the GVWR shown.

The hint is that the placard shows a higher REAR wheel weight, which isn't true without passengers and cargo.

[scarab153]

I don't know about the authenticity of the Scarab for sale on ebay. I am the second owner of an original 1979 factory Scarab. Number 153 to be exact. The manufacturing plate on the Scarab for sale on ebay does look authentic. However, unless Scarab Automobiles produced two #153 Scarabs, then someone either pulled or is trying to pull a fast one. There are a few pictures of my Scarab posted on cardomain.com. They can be found listed as a 1975 Datsun 280Z (the original donor car) under my user name scarab153. I have all of the original paperwork from the first owner, including the purchase agreement signed by Brian Morrow and dated 12-18-78. I am waiting to hear a response from the seller on ebay. I'll post again after I hear from him.

Thanks,
Larry

[Mike]

I like the Scarab. It's a very neat and rare modification. For some reason, however, the modifications to the Ebay car just don't look right to me. Things like the MSA air dam, blacked out window moldings, mirror emblems, BBS wheels, guages, mesh headrests, banged up rocker panels, and an ID plate that doesn't seem to fit... I just think something's fishy....

[Mike]

Here's a link to a Scarab forum I started a number of years ago...

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=100

[Dudeboy]

This may or may not be a Scarab, however the engine is in the JTR setback position and that is a JTR (Jags That Run) hood latch. This may be a JTR makeover, but it is still a nice V8 Z from the pictures.

[MEZZZ]

I don't know about the authenticity of the Scarab for sale on ebay. I am the second owner of an original 1979 factory Scarab. Number 153 to be exact. The manufacturing plate on the Scarab for sale on ebay does look authentic. However, unless Scarab Automobiles produced two #153 Scarabs, then someone either pulled or is trying to pull a fast one. There are a few pictures of my Scarab posted on cardomain.com. They can be found listed as a 1975 Datsun 280Z (the original donor car) under my user name scarab153. I have all of the original paperwork from the first owner, including the purchase agreement signed by Brian Morrow and dated 12-18-78. I am waiting to hear a response from the seller on ebay. I'll post again after I hear from him.

Thanks,
Larry
Thats very interesting, please keep us posted on/if the seller contacts you.
I am sure the potential buyer would like to know this as well. Not long ago, it was possible on Ebay to contact a bidder, unfortunately, that option has been taken away. On more than a couple occasions, I was able to warn a high bidder about a "less than honest" seller.

[Mr Camouflage]

Sounds dodgey. But I can think of a couple of theories to cover it (other than scarab making 2 #153).

Theory 1. Ebay car is a fake and somehow got a scarab id plate, as red car owner claims to have original scarab paper work.

Theory 2.
Ebay car, is a scarab, He sells the engine after he decides it's not powerful enough.
It gets put in the red car, which gets a scarab kit makeover. And since it has the original #153 engine (They had numbered intake manifolds apparently), the PO is able to get a replacement tag from scarab?? and maybe copies of paperwork?

I'm wondering what details are on the paperwork. If it lists the Nissan chassis number as being the same as the red car, then thats the original one. If it list the blue cars number then thats the original one. If it doesn't list the chassis number, then nothing can really be proved by it.

Oh the shenanigans that PO's will get up to.

I'll bet on the red one.

MEZZ. You could report the car to ebay as it's may be being misrepresented as an original scarab, when possibly it isn't, and send them a link to the other #153 on cardomain. Though whether they would actually take any action is anybodies guess.

[MEZZZ]

MEZZ. You could report the car to ebay as it's may be being misrepresented as an original scarab, when possibly it isn't, and send them a link to the other #153 on cardomain. Though whether they would actually take any action is anybodies guess.

LOL, dont even get me started on Ebay and their fraud protection services they offer for buying a car. I wouldnt have this one sitting in my garage right now if they did what they claim.

[Mr Camouflage]

Well according to the owner of Scarab #154 is was a production error. Scarab screwed up and made 2 cars with the number #153.

The one on e-bay is not a fake!!!

There are 2 cars numbered #153.

It was a mistake on Scarab's part

Blue Scarab 153 build date 2/28/79
Red Scarab 153 build date 6/1x/79
White Scarab 154 build date 6/21/79 (mine)

I'm guessing the time lapse between the blue and red car (4 months) was sufficient time to lose paperwork/not check the proceeding cars Scarab number.

Again the car is real.

[geezer]

Intriguing... all 8 employees would have had to take their shoes off to count to 153 and beyond.ROFL

Seriously though, I can see how that could happen and slip through the cracks. Just makes the the cars in question more interesting and adds to the history of the Scarab. That should up the price a bit?

[nwa240z]

I like the Scarab. It's a very neat and rare modification. For some reason, however, the modifications to the Ebay car just don't look right to me. Things like the MSA air dam, blacked out window moldings, mirror emblems, BBS wheels, guages, mesh headrests, banged up rocker panels, and an ID plate that doesn't seem to fit... I just think something's fishy....

The original airdams were made of fiberglass and you know what happens to fiberglass when you curb it, it breaks. The typical replacement was a MSA urathane (sp) part.

My car came with blacked out window moldings, I don't know what mirror emblems your refering to however those are the correct mirrors for a Scarab (my car does not have these) BBS wheels where original equipment from Scarab, guages(?) it does have the original SCARAB logo on the turbo guage so it's a Scarab part, mesh head rests are attached to RECARO seats, that's the way they came back in the day. Dents in the rocker panels, I'm guessing he ment "frame rails" which typically get dented from jacking up the car.

I know you've done your home work on these cars before!!!

My Scarab #154
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h167/twin_z_dad/Scarab/100_5015-1.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h167/twin_z_dad/Scarab/100_5003.jpg

If you look closely you can see the mesh headrests
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h167/twin_z_dad/Scarab/100_5001.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h167/twin_z_dad/Scarab/IM002655.jpg

(They had numbered intake manifolds apparently),

Never heard of that one...

Another "plausable" explanation is that there was a mistake at the engravers shop who made the ID badges. Nobody has brought that up as of yet.

[nwa240z]

OK after reading the ad for the 10th time (ebay) he put a 5 speed in the car, thus he used different engine mounts (setback) and what looks to be a JTR tranny X member and hood latch (GOOD EYE there!).

So basically he took the Scarab and put in a JTR setback conversion.

Is it a still a real Scarab? Yes.

Is it the proper set up/period correct? No

What's it worth? Whatever somebody is willing to pay.

[MEZZZ]

Your Scarab is gorgeous!

[Carl Beck]

If one owner has all the original documentation showing #153's purchase and the car is still "correct". That is Scarab #153.

If another owner has a car with the correct badges, same Scarab number - wrong engine mounting position, wrong front spoiler, and NO ORIGINAL FACTORY DOCUMENTATION showning that the car was produced on that date and later sold by Scarab - then all he has is a HybridZ with a STORY TO TELL.... At best he has a SCARAB Replica...

Is is a mistake to assume that the Scarab facility made any mistakes on their numbering - when they bothered to number their cars to begin with..

FWIW,
Carl B.

[Carl Beck]

OK after reading the ad for the 10th time (ebay) he put a 5 speed in the car, thus he used different engine mounts (setback) and what looks to be a JTR tranny X member and hood latch (GOOD EYE there!).

So basically he took the Scarab and put in a JTR setback conversion.

Is it a still a real Scarab? Yes.

The question is, "was it ever a Scarab?".

The blue Z on E-bay is presented as being a two owner car - were you the first or second owner? I'm wondering why you believe it is a Scarab - when so many things say it is not.

FWIW,
Carl B.

[adamr]

I also noticed the telltale signs of a JTR Conversion, as the distributor is underneath the hood latch, not in front a bit. And the hood latch is custom. Even if it is real, wouldn't you call this a heavily Molested Scarab?

But the winning bidder will probably do his homework later, especially if he plans to return it to a more original condition. Then he will realize that he paid too much for that car. I would take many of the cars on HybridZ before wasting my $$ on the alleged #153. I'll take an original 240z over all of them anyway, which is why I have one.

I appreciate all the work you all have done on this forum. I am on here regularly, but have much more to take away from it that I have to add.

[nwa240z]

The question is, "was it ever a Scarab?".

The blue Z on E-bay is presented as being a two owner car - were you the first or second owner? I'm wondering why you believe it is a Scarab - when so many things say it is not.

FWIW,
Carl B.

Carl,

I was not the first or second owner of the blue car. I am the third owner of #154. I do not have the original paperwork for the car however the second owner lives down the street from me, brought the car to Arkansas from California. He bought the car from the original owner after it was stored for several years.

The blue 153, was it an original Scarab? Well according to Craig Sparks who is the most knowledgeable resource that I know of on the Scarab cars says yes. Then WHY are there 2 cars #153? That is the question. Craig has always told me there were 2 cars with the number 153, I’ve know this all along.

What says it IS a Scarab.
Let’s dissect the car on eBay.
Exterior
Louvered hood and inspection lids
BBS 3 piece wheels
Correct mirrors
Blacked out trim
Scarab emblems on sail panel (only available from the factory)
3 piece rear spoiler
Scarab lettering on lower fenders and rear spoiler
Interior
Recaro seats
Tuck and roll door panels
Momo steering wheel
EGT/Boost gauge
Glove box door emblem
Door jamb data plate
I’d love to see under the carpet because Scarab put a LOT of sound deadening in their cars.

Now an important piece if you look at the under car pics, the one labeled FLOORS, look at the rear differential, there a piece of C shaped metal holding the differential nose down. Now if this is a “knock off” car, somebody went to great lengths to duplicate a factory car but screwed up when they gave it SN 153.

I’m sticking by my guns on this one calling it real, as does Craig, he has educated me on these cars quite a bit. How knowledgeable is Craig? Last month my clutch slave went out, I called and asked him what part I needed. He spouts off “The slave you need is for a 1974 Datsun B210 with a 4 speed, don’t get the one for an automatic because the bleeder is on the bottom you need the one from a 4 speed.” I was impressed.

[Mike]

My car came with blacked out window moldings, I don't know what mirror emblems your refering to however those are the correct mirrors for a Scarab (my car does not have these) BBS wheels where original equipment from Scarab, guages(?) it does have the original SCARAB logo on the turbo guage so it's a Scarab part, mesh head rests are attached to RECARO seats, that's the way they came back in the day. Dents in the rocker panels, I'm guessing he ment "frame rails" which typically get dented from jacking up the car.

I know you've done your home work on these cars before!!!


That's a very nice car you have. I really enjoy the Scarab and would love to get my hands on one in the near future. I'm not doubting the homework you've done or any kind of work ANYONE has done on this car.

A lot of parts on that car look like aftermarket to me -- too shiny and modern. I shouldn't have made the points that I did because it would be almost impossible to keep original parts from either breaking or stolen, if the car was actually driven. There are plenty of Classic Z's (including mine) with shiny new aftermarket parts...

Do you (or anyone) have a list of modifications that were made by Scarab during their production of these cars? I've created a forum just for the Scarab on this club because I believe it is part of the Classic Z era and deserves to be discussed and written about. For that matter, does anyone know if there are living alumni of the Scarab company?

The car on eBay is a nice car. But if it doesn't have paperwork and the serial number is not accurate.... it wouldn't justify the extra $5k.

BTW: Who's Craig?

[nwa240z]

I used your reseach coupled with Craig Sparks knowledge, old company brochures and magazine articles (from the 80's) to make my case on these cars. If it's Scarab related, Craig and I try to aquire it.

I've scored him an original set of FIA calipers for his car and sourced him rebuid kits for the calipers too. He's sent me company litarature and an additonal set of Scarab lettering he had custom made from the original pieces. We work together, I've tracked down a few cars then hand off the info to him. He attempts contact with the owners and adds them to the Scarab registry.

Go to zhome.com and on the left side menu additional Scarab information can be found.

[Mike]

Just read the Ebay ad again. The story sounds made up to me. This guy knows too many details about things that happened a long time ago. The first part of his story is something I didn't know:

This 1976 Datsun 280Z was purchased by its original owner in 1978 with the sole intention of converting the vehicle into a factory produced, authentic Scarab.

Did Scarab allow people to bring their cars in, from off the street, for modification? If so, perhaps there was a screw up in the serial numbering process and this car was given the same serial number as a production car? Or maybe there was a whole different set of serial numbers given to personally modified cars rather than production cars ?

I know the car had a new engine, but, why wouldn't the guy keep the valve covers that say Scarab? I'm sure those are hard to find today ..

We work together, I've tracked down a few cars then hand off the info to him. He attempts contact with the owners and adds them to the Scarab registry.

Scarab registry? Where's that ?

[Mike]

Do you (or anyone) have a list of modifications that were made by Scarab during their production of these cars?

I forgot that I did some research on this topic a few years ago. The age must be kicking in. Here's a list of the modifications that Scarab did:

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31570

Mike

[nwa240z]

Just read the Ebay ad again. The story sounds made up to me. This guy knows too many details about things that happened a long time ago. The first part of his story is something I didn't know:



Did Scarab allow people to bring their cars in, from off the street, for modification? If so, perhaps there was a screw up in the serial numbering process and this car was given the same serial number as a production car? Or maybe there was a whole different set of serial numbers given to personally modified cars rather than production cars ?

I know the car had a new engine, but, why wouldn't the guy keep the valve covers that say Scarab? I'm sure those are hard to find today ..



Scarab registry? Where's that ?

Yes Scarab allowed you to bring in your car and have it modified by them, mine was owned by a dentist in CA, he brought it in to have the conversion done. Valve covers are very rare indeed, but the Scarab valve covers don't clear modern valve trains, i.e. bigger roller rockers, trust me I tried as did the former owner of my valve covers. The valve covers he has on the car look exactally like the ones that came with my car when I bought it, they're HEAVY guage aluminum to dampen noise, Scarab may have used those (or just a coincidence that we have the same covers???) on the higher performance engines or if they were out of stock on the Scarab/Edelbrock covers.

Scarab registry is not on line, Craig Sparks keeps track of the cars as they surface, plus you gotta know the secret hand shake, just kidding.

BTW my car is a 71Z HLS3012297

Here is a pic of the covers my car came with:
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h167/twin_z_dad/IM002590.jpg

[scarab153]

Hi guys,
I have been out of town for a few days. I am going to have to agree with nwa240z. The seller of the Scarab on ebay (not the owner, it is on consignment), replied to my email. He put me in contact with Craig Sparkes. I was also able to reach the original owner of my Scarab. There was a mix-up at the factory. My car was originally supposed to be a dark blue metallic. When the first owner went to pick it up it was painted a light blue. The same color that was originally on the Scarab for sale on ebay. It appears that Brian Morrow was not particularly careful with his paperwork. Between the discussions I've had with the original owner of my car, and the research done by Craig Sparkes, I am convinced of the authenticity of the Scarab for sale on ebay.

[Carl Beck]

Carl,

I was not the first or second owner of the blue car. I am the third owner of #154. I do not have the original paperwork for the car however the second owner lives down the street from me, brought the car to Arkansas from California. He bought the car from the original owner after it was stored for several years.

Hi nwa240z:
Thanks for your reply. You have a pretty original car and so far no other has turned up with the same Series Number. So you are most likely in pretty good shape. Likewise "scarab153" plus he has some documentation to accompany his.

I'll state right up front that I'm no expert on the Scarab's - indeed I have only a very limited knowledge of the cars. I applaud Mike's efforts to gather together as much information as possible and make it publicly available here. Thanks to you and scarab153 for contributing to that knowledge base in this thread.

It is a shame that an effort to publicly document and register these cars wasn't started years ago. It would have been of benefit to all owners, as well as sellers and buyers alike.

If you and Craig believe that there were two cars given the same series number by Brian, and you believe that the car on e-bay really was produced/modified by Scarab, then that's the best information you can provide to a prospective buyer. I do believe that it should be preceded by "In My Opinion" or "Based On My Research I Believe...".

The main reason for public discussion on this forum, is for the benefit of prospective buyers. The Pro's and Con's of any car are usually fully discussed - and the prospective buyers, if they are here, can make their own decisions.

My opinions are simply based on 40+ years in the Classic, Collectable and Special Interest markets. If I wanted a Scarab, I'd want it as original as possible and with as much documented history as possible. {Tigers, Corsa's, Pontiac GTO's, Fuelie Corvettes, LS-6 Chevells you name it and you'll find plenty of fakes in the market}.

Buyer Beware - anyone that wants a real "whatever" - I believe is best advised to buy "whatever" when it is fully correct, with a documented history. Lacking that, the closer one can get to that standard the better the bet with one's money.

Personally if i wanted a Scarab, I'd keep looking for one, I can't see getting involved with any car with a controversial background nor one that has been so extensively modified to begin with.

As you said - we'll have to let the market determine what that specific car is worth. I would hate to see it set the benchmark for the value of Scarab's.

FWIW,
Carl B.

[DeesZ]

Scarab # 153 (one of them) returns for sale on ebay. Those of you that were interested in what price it would fetch may want to watch this listing.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Datsun-Z-Series-1-OF-18-1976-DATSUN-Z-ORIGINAL-CALIFORNIA-SCARAB-CAR-153_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6187QQihZ011QQitemZ 320289803441QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Here's the link to the prior listing if needed
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Datsun-Z-Series-1-OF-18-1976-DATSUN-Z-ORIGINAL-CALIFORNIA-SCARAB-CAR-153_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6187QQihZ012QQitemZ 220267073326QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[Carl Beck]

Interesting:
In the first listing they state that there are 18 original Scarab's accounted for - yet they list only 16 (12 with door tags and 4 without). What happened to the other two?

In the first listing, in the Q&A section - they acknowledge the fact that the Red #153 exists - and provide an explanation for why two would have the same Scarab series number. Yet this time they fail to mention that fact - again. Either they don't believe the story, or they don't want potential buyers to know about it..

I wouldn't be too happy if I found that out after I bought the car... because with any controversy like that - I wouldn't have bought the car to begin with. Might be part of the reason that the actual owner doesn't want to represent nor sell the car himself, and is hiding behind a professional dealer.

On top of all that - personally I wouldn't buy a car from a used car dealer in a private auction anyway.

FWIW,
Carl B.

[DeesZ]

Auction ended with a Buy-it-Now.... $19,310.