ZG Production Figures

[Tony D]

Don't want to open the 'production-vs-sales' can of worms again, but I have need of some figures relating to ZG-Specific Production Data.
We run a vehicle at Bonneville for Land Speed Records. Our entry has been protested citing a production figure of '482' ZG units produced. I have no idea where this die-hard Ford/Chevy Fenatic got his numbers, but he's posted the $100 protest fee, and effectively blocked us from Competing at the Speed Week Competition in August by this tactic.

What I am looking for, is any documentation regarding the ZG option being produced.

I am also interested in any JDM (or other country for that matter) sales brochures that show the ZG Nose as a option available on ANY other Z-Model.

What this guys contends is that the ZG Nose is merely a 'Racing Part Option' same as the IMSA Bodywork available for Chevy Monzas and Ford Pintos of similar vintage---they had part numbers, and were available through parts distribution, but were not a 'real production item'...

I have mentioned that you could buy a ZG off the showroom floor, and at least till 1972, in the USA you could get it as a Dealer-Added Option through Nissan Motorsports.

In the meantime, we will probably have to pull our G-Nose off and run that way till the protest is adjudicated....but this tactic bothers me since I know it was a specific model available at any delership in Japan. I just need proof that at least 500 were sold through the available production run.

Anybody know if the ZG nose was available as a factory option alone on run-of-the-mill JDM S30's after the shift to the later light/body style of the 260Z?

I need to cover all the bases and blow the guy out of the water now, and not keep getting protested and blocked from competiton due to sour grapes.

I mean, the guy has a Cosworth Four Valve head on his engine...and he's upset by our G-Nose!:finger:

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Carl Beck]

Hi Tony D.
Having been a New Car Sales Manager at a Datsun Dealership in 72/73 I can tell you that the "G" nose was offered by the Datsun Competition Parts Dept, and was available "Over-The-Counter" at your local Datsun Dealer's Parts Department.

However it was never a Dealer Installed Option. Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) forbade Manufacturers or their authorized Dealers from removing or altering in any way - any of the equipment mandated by Federal Law. That of course included the front impact tested bumper for 1972 as well as the entire front assembly for the stricter still 73 standards.

So it looks like you will have to base your case on some type of documentation from Japan. Alan may have found something "official" that you can use.

good luck,
Carl B.

[Carl Beck]

Oh.. just remembered... How about the FIA Approval for the G-Nose? I think, but I'm not certain that the parts had to be regular production parts or offered on at lease some number of cars build by the factory - 500 maybe?

maybe this will help...
Carl B.

[gnosez]

Tony - I sure hope Alan can help you on this as I'd hate for you and your team to be treated this way after all your hard work.

As a semi-ZG owner let me know what I can do (re:kneecapping).....

[HS30-H]

Our entry has been protested citing a production figure of '482' ZG units produced. I have no idea where this die-hard Ford/Chevy Fenatic got his numbers, but he's posted the $100 protest fee, and effectively blocked us from Competing at the Speed Week Competition in August by this tactic.

Tony,
I have no idea where this guy came up with the figure of '482' either. I suspect that he might be confusing the 'HS30-H' model 'Fairlady 240ZG' with the 'PS30' and 'PS30-SB' model 'Fairlady Z432' and 'Fairlady Z432-R'. Even then his figures would be based on disputed evidence.........

What I am looking for, is any documentation regarding the ZG option being produced.

If I were you, I would stake all my chips on the FIA homologation amendment that legalised the factory G-nose for Group 4 competition use. The mere existence of this amendment page proves ( as far as the FIA were concerned ) that over 500 identical cars had been series-produced and were meant for sale to the general public. He can't argue with that.

Amendment 9/8V to FIA homologation number 3023 proves that Nissan had complied with Article 251, Category A, Group 4 ( Special Touring Cars section ) of the International Sporting Code, Appendix "J", and had produced the quantity of 500 cars necessary within the time allowed. In the case of Group 4 during the period concerned, this was 24 consecutive months or less.

The guys who protested you, and your sanctioning body, can't argue with this if they recognise and adhere to FIA rules. The amendment 9/8V was valid from 1st October 1973, and was retrospectively applied from a start date of August 1972. Factory 'HS30-H' 'Fairlady 240ZG' models were sold to the general public in Japan from late October 1971 through to the end of 1973.

I don't believe I have ever seen an official factory-related document that conclusively states the quantities of Fairlady 240ZG models sold - but I have been told by numerous sources over the years ( and many of them ex-Nissan employees ) that just over 1000 were made. This would have made the G-Nose parts eligible for Group 2 ( over 1000 made ) but the factory never bothered with the necessary amendment to the homologation as it would have been pointless.

I have in the past been called upon to 'prove' certain things to my insurance company here in the UK with regard to my factory Fairlady 240ZG. I carried out a lot of background research into the model, and had to present it to them as part of an 'agreed value' policy. The car is the only known genuine factory-built 'HS30-H' model in Europe - so it can be troublesome to insure properly.




I've made sworn affidavits for presentation to RAC MSA and FIA competition scrutineers in the past, and would be happy to prepare one for you if you think it would help your situation. I can provide copies of all the necessary FIA regulation paragraphs and factory-sourced photos and data to support it. But to be honest, that single page ( amendment 9/8V to homologation number 3023 ) is all you should need.

The ZG parts were available from the 'Sports Option' lists in Japan right up until Nissan's competitions departments ( 'Nissan Sports' / 'Nissan Sport Service' et al ) were merged to form NISMO in 1982. From then on, the parts continued to be available from NISMO until at least the mid-Nineties. They were NOT offered as a true 'Factory Option' to be specified on a new car - but one of the authorised 'Nissan Sport Service' dealers in Japan ( there were 17 of these by mid 1973 ) could supply and fit the parts should the Japanese customer wish. This would however have had implications for him on taxation class and other bureacracy that was open to interpretation ( especially by troublesome traffic police officers, apparently! ) so I don't think this will be all that useful to you in your current situation.

Let me know what you need.

Cheers,

Alan T.

[Tony D]

I've got the Group 4 Homogolation papers, I will review those sections in preparation for the argument. The Group 2 information was a good update, I'd not heard that., and that is good to know!
Given that Nissan had to use something to prove it was a 'factory option' when the had the car classified in 1975 for SCTA-BNI Competition---I suspect the FIA papers would qualify for that purpose.

I suspect they are contending the G-Nose never was available for the 2+2 as well. But I think the logical argument there is the swapping that occurs between Domestics in competition all the time. They have previously allowed Shaker Hoods on vehicles not originally equipped with them, but on models that are 'cloned' from another division of the same overall manufacturer.

The next protest is that it was never available on "280Z's" but the obvious production run of S30 in the Japanese Market should quash that contention.

We are still in the 'prospecting stages' of what the actual protest involves---all that will be written in due time I suppose, but it puts a big pall over going to Bonneville---especially with the spectre of having a real record run negated after a protest (which is what happened several years ago when we broke a "Fuel" record running only Gasoline...The rules stated 'fuel is open' so we chose to run standard gasoline, and broke the record by 14mph...the former record holder protested us and it was upheld as the rules were vague. Of course they changed them the next year to ALLOW the use of 'any fuel'...politics...)

The base of it all is that this joker has been running in the 130 to 136mph range for the past three years against a record at 141.824 mph. Our first run was 141.336 (close to the record, but being on a rookie pass, was ineligible for the record in any case!), then subsequently in the high 140 ranges, all within 3% of the record... We're just waiting for the cooler weather in September/October/November like our rookie run last November...

Your suspicions were along the same lines as mine, Alan: 482? Got to be some Wikipedia Search that shows that number someplace. I don't know WHERE he came up with it. Though for only $100 he can screw us up for a while jumping through hoops while our car is 'in limbo'... We actually went out Sunday and told the driver to just make an easy pass so we keep our points and run placement for later in the year. If we come in slower than they do, maybe they won't feel so intimidated.

I'm so irate at this point, I'm willing to take the nose off and spank them just for spite!

[Tony D]

<EDIT>I've confirmed that I do have the 3023-70 9/8V Supplement Pages. They deal with the "Aerodyna-Nose Model" I assume the verbiage for the 500 units is contained within the actual FIA Supplement J as noted---I take that the section has changed by now, and doesn't read the same...any archival documents available for e-transfer on that point would be greatly appreciated!

[Tony D]

SCTA Rule 4.E Automobile Production. Any component which is offered for sale by a recognized automotive manufacturer to the general public as original equipment or accessory to a production automobile is considered automotive production. A production rate of at least 500 vehiclesof the same model and year is considered to meet the requirement of a production automobile.

SCTA Rule 5.E Production Category
This category is intended to represent typical transportation vehicles, which may be purchased from ANY automobile dealer. A production rate of at least 500 vehicles of the same model and available from dealers inventory for sale to the general public is considered to meet the requirement of a production automobile. In keeping with this intent, the cars are aerodynamically "stone stock" with no body parts allowed which were not parts of the manufacturer's production for the series of the vehicles involved.
The engine used must have been available in the model of the vehicle used as purchased form ANY automobile dealer. modified body, body panels, spoilers, air dams, etc intended for and as accepted or sanctioned by NASCAR, NHRA, SCCA, etc are not permitted for use in this category unless specifically allowed. A manufacturer's part number does not necessarily imply that a part is an original, factory installed body part. Both interior and exterior panels are considered to be part of a production vehicle and must be mounted in their original relationship to each other.

The S30 did have more than 500 produced in any given year, and the accessory of the G-Nose was also produced in those numbers acording to the FIA Documentation....
Since they clearly refer to "The Series" this means to me what is legal for an S30 from 1972 is legal for an S30 of 1976. And a Classifier like "GS" or "RS" does not change the fact that it is still the same series...

What the guy is PO&B about is the fact that his IMSA stuff is specifically disallowed, and he thinks the G-Nose is the same thing---well you could never go to a dealer and buy a Monza or Pinto with the IMSA Spec flares. And we are not trying to use Group 4 Flares at all....jsut the plain old G-Nose as it came from the factory....

At least we have that going for us, it's pretty clear it DID come on cars to the general public. I'm feeling better now that I've reviewed the rules more, and gotten this feedback today!

[Mr Camouflage]

I dont know if this is any help

It's from the USA Nissan Competition parts book cira 1984.

[HS30-H]

<EDIT>I've confirmed that I do have the 3023-70 9/8V Supplement Pages. They deal with the "Aerodyna-Nose Model" I assume the verbiage for the 500 units is contained within the actual FIA Supplement J as noted---I take that the section has changed by now, and doesn't read the same...any archival documents available for e-transfer on that point would be greatly appreciated!


Yes, I'll scan the pages from the appropriate year's FIA year book and send them direct to you via e-mail. Got some other stuff to back it up with too.

I suggest taking most of this discussion offline from here on in. Let's not allow your 'enemy' to get a look through any hole in the fence.........






What's that old racing proverb? Something like ".....The REAL racing starts when the rule book is printed." :classic:

Alan T.

[Carl Beck]

Hi Tony D
I just wondered if you had followed the Wind Tunnel Testing done by the HybridZ group a few months ago? If so, how do you account for the G-Nose producing both more lift and drag at 120mph, than the stock 240-Z?

Would the outcome be altered because of the longer 2+2 roof line and wheel base?

FWIW,
Carl B.

[HS30-H]

I just wondered if you had followed the Wind Tunnel Testing done by the HybridZ group a few months ago? If so, how do you account for the G-Nose producing both more lift and drag at 120mph, than the stock 240-Z?

Carl,
They didn't test a proper factory-type G-Nose, did they?

Do you honestly believe that Nissan ( and everybody else ) would have used the parts on their Group 4 cars if they were detrimental to aero performance over the 'standard' S30-series Z front end treatment?

Alan T.

[26th-Z]

With that said, the big question in MY mind is how do the guys at HybridZ account for their findings?

[HS30-H]

The full results of the HybridZ wind tunnel tests have not actually been made public as yet. I believe they are going to be published in an upcoming magazine article, and after that we will be free to discuss them in detail on this and other forums.

I suggest we await the publication of the full results before discussing this any further, and respect the wishes of the team that carried out the tests.

Alan T.

[John Coffey]

I have a certified set of the FIA docs also and I've got a page showing certification for the G-nose as of Sept. 1971. The document numbers are:

FIA homol. No: 3023
Amendment: 5/5V
JAF: GT-010 V-5 46.12.31

[HS30-H]

I have a certified set of the FIA docs also and I've got a page showing certification for the G-nose as of Sept. 1971. The document numbers are:

FIA homol. No: 3023
Amendment: 5/5V
JAF: GT-010 V-5 46.12.31



As far as the FIA are concerned, it is the final version of the amendment ( ie 9/8V ) that carries most weight, as it is the one that is on the most up-to-date version of homologation no. 3023.

As far as Tony's problem is concerned, 9/8V should help him the most I think.

[Tony D]

Follow it, I think 10% of the funds were mine! LOL

I will parrot Alan's comments RE the test in the tunnel. It was not a Nissan Nose, and I'm sure you saw my posts regarding that fact there Carl. As you can see from the discussion there, and being as nebulous as I can till the article comes out, they discovered 'other things' after testing the G-Nose that run in-line with the dissimilarities noted in both Alan and My comments regarding the nose they did use...this alone would explain the effects mentioned. "A G-Nose is a G-Nose" is not a proper commentary about parts available here in the USA.

Aside from the Wind Tunnel Testing, the big thing the G-Nose does from my experience is keep the front end planted far better at speed. Reduced Drag is great, but if the front wheels are taking flight and have sketchy contact at 140+ it's pretty much useless. Nissan's testing revealed a top speed increase of 15kph with the G-Nose over comparable Non-G-Nose Equipped 240's---this does not jibe with the 'increased drag' contention.

My Street 240 has had a G-Nose (With Teeth), Front Spoiler, and a Waletail for quite some time, all due to testing I did with static pressure probes and instrumentation in the early 90's. I was eager to support the tests to see if they supported my original conclusions. There were some interesting surprises for me in that testing (Article....Article....) and it has given me some verified items to attend to should we decide to run Sans-G-Nose at some point (Like In September) just to "prove a point".

With the Appendix Alan E-Mailed me this morning (Thanks again, Alan!) I feel much better about the whole situation. Mr. monza might not like the documentation...but then again, he's the one that posted the $100. I only wish we got the money for a Beer and Pizza Fest afterwards.... Stewards always get the $$$....

[gnosez]

Without revealing any pre-publication news (while some might think there is a link between the aero-wind tunnel test results and the last Harry Potter book due out later this week, there is no concrete proof at this point), I believe I can say this about the questions being raised re: gnose results.

The gnose used in the test and those used in the original "works" race cars are not similar. Therefore any comparsion between the two is truely apples and oranges.

And yes, I have and will be making additional modifications to my aftermarket gnose to increase it's usefulness.

[Tony D]

I've said that for some years, it was nice to have Alan mention it with photodocumentation to back it up. My thousands of words were really rendered moot when his photos showed exactly the differences.

And the testing showed there is a functional difference as well...it's not just cosmetic! Lots of interesting information in those tests. Some stuff surprised me as well re: some parts.

Hehehehe "Nebulosity"! LOL

[Doehring]

Hi all,
MSA doesn't offer the so called G-Nose any more. Are there other dealers or producers that you know?
Rolf

[Mr Camouflage]

Hi all,
MSA doesn't offer the so called G-Nose any more. Are there other dealers or producers that you know?
Rolf

Replicas are available from Japan, like this one (http://home.att.ne.jp/sky/FairladyZ/ZG/Nosemain_new.htm)

[Carl Beck]

I dont know if this is any help

It's from the USA Nissan Competition parts book cira 1984.

Anyone have the USA Nissan Competition parts book from 74, 75, 76 - with a picture of the G-Nose? Or any of the Nissan Sports Option catalogs with a picure of the G-Nose from the mid 70's?

Alan said the early type G-Nose did not have the "air-con" ducts... I wonder if that is the style sold here earlier than 1978.

Carl B.

[Carl Beck]

Replicas are available from Japan, like this one (http://home.att.ne.jp/sky/FairladyZ/ZG/Nosemain_new.htm)

Yes thanks - that site seems to show both types.. with and without the additional "air-con" ducting. Alan - am I interpreting the meaning of your term "air-con" ducts correctly? Tony D are these the "teeth" you refernced?


Carl B.

[26th-Z]

Nissan Fairlady Z parts catalog, models S30, HS30 and PS30 dated 1972 with revisions up through March 1974 showing Blant Nose Ass'y - Lower P/N 98520-E8700 and updated to N3256. This picture does not show the ducting.

[HS30-H]

Alan said the early type G-Nose did not have the "air-con" ducts... I wonder if that is the style sold here earlier than 1978.


Alan - am I interpreting the meaning of your term "air-con" ducts correctly?

Carl,
The additional ducts ( which simply bolted onto the original ZG lower panel ) were not on the early production ZG models ( my car never had them, for example ) and were added to the later production models in an attempt to help cure poor performance of the aircon, and other heat-related issues that were showing up as fuel percolation etc.

I am told that some early production ZGs had these ducts retro-fitted by Nissan mechanics when they went in for routine servicing.

Later factory-supplied spare parts did have the ducts on them: see attached pic of my NOS spare lower panel - which probably dates from around 1974/75 I would guess. This is an usued factory item, still with the part number sticker on it.

I was told in Japan that only the very first deliveries of G-nose kits sent to Datsun Competition in the USA were the 'real thing', and that Datsun Competition USA soon made their own ( locally produced ) versions that were a simplified ( and therefore cheaper ) version of the OEM Japanese parts. I can't vouch for the accuracy of that story though.

Alan T.

[Tony D]

Tony D are these the "teeth" you refernced?

Nope, I am referring to rows of white fiberglass teeth that I cut out and screwed to the bottom of the FRP bumper on my car in 95 before the Denver Convention. Originally they caused so much airflow disruption that I ended up taking out every other one. This got my temperatures back down to normal, and without all the teeth, it looked much less 'Star Trek Ferengi" and more "Menacing Shark".

I also noted that my fastlane compliance ratio went WAY up when I removed the every other tooth. Apparently seeing a semi-gloss black fully flared car with Green Glowing Headlights and a row of sharklike teeth on the front bumper convinces 'slower traffic yield the lane right'...

Hence my name in some places is "Sharkie73Z".... it made it onto CNN World News Tonight when they covered the (SIC: Can't use Di*k as a proper name here apparently soooooo:)) "Richard" Clark's "25th Birthday of the Z Party" at the Petersen Museum that year. People called me and said "Dude, your car was on TV!" How do you know it was my car? "Who else has green headlights and shark teeth on the front?"

Point made... LOL

Mr. K got a real kick out of it, as well.

But no, my "Teeth" are not the airflow deflectors seen on the factory G-Noses. Not by a longshot.

I took the spares that I removed, and affixed them to the underside of the bumper (with red RTV to simulate 'gums') on my Wife's 260Z---which promptly was named "Bride of Sharkie" by those in the local Club.

[Carl Beck]

I was told in Japan that only the very first deliveries of G-nose kits sent to Datsun Competition in the USA were the 'real thing', and that Datsun Competition USA soon made their own ( locally produced ) versions that were a simplified ( and therefore cheaper ) version of the OEM Japanese parts. I can't vouch for the accuracy of that story though.

Alan T.

Hi Alan:
Very interesting. I just gave Ron Johnson a call. He was in the Datsun Competition Parts Dept. during that time (actually for about 30 years)..

He said that they only sold the parts received from Nissan Japan, but that they were quickly copied by local fiberglass shops and reproduced in various configurations to be sold in the aftermarket. (ie. I piece, 2 piece 4 piece ect.) the least expensive being the one piece units.

Yes, the initial shippments from Japan were the early type - and shortly thereafter they started receiving the the later type with the additional duct work. He was thinking that it was 75 or 76 before they were listed in the Competition Parts Catalogs - as the first units arrived too late to make the deadline for the up comming year's issue.

The G-Nose was discontiuned by the Datsun/Nissan Competition Parts Dept. only because Nissan Japan ran out of replacement parts. ie they all became NLA. Even though the copies were available through local suppliers Datsun Competiton Parts never carried them. The Competition Parts Dept. soon ran out of the headlght covers and hood hinges as well. (parts that the aftermarket could not reproduce cheaply).

He seemed to recall the additional air ducts being added to direct more air into/through the oil cooler. Perhaps there is a Competition Bulletin somewhere outlining that. I mentioned your comments about the A/C and he said he had not heard that, but it too was quite possible.

He did not recall any of the aftermarket suppliers using the "gray" fiberglass in an attempt to actually duplicate the look of the originals.

FWIW,
Carl

[Carl Beck]

Nope, I am referring to rows of white fiberglass teeth that I cut out and screwed to the bottom of the FRP bumper on my car in 95 before the Denver Convention.

Oh my God.. now I remember!! That is just too funny...LOL! I actually remember people talking about that at the convention in 96. Time flys...

Carl B.

[HS30-H]

I just gave Ron Johnson a call. He was in the Datsun Competition Parts Dept. during that time (actually for about 30 years)..

He said that they only sold the parts received from Nissan Japan, but that they were quickly copied by local fiberglass shops and reproduced in various configurations to be sold in the aftermarket.

Carl,
I did think of Ron when I made that last post. It figures that the story is at least partly apocryphal ( to be expected really ), but I sometimes wonder just how many kits Datsun Competition USA actually sold, and where they have all gone (?). They don't seem to pop up all that often, do they? Maybe time has been harsh on their numbers.......... It's a real shame, because they are really nicely made parts.

He seemed to recall the additional air ducts being added to direct more air into/through the oil cooler. Perhaps there is a Competition Bulletin somewhere outlining that. I mentioned your comments about the A/C and he said he had not heard that, but it too was quite possible.

Nothing to do with oil cooling as far as I'm aware. The factory race cars certainly didn't use them ( they had comprehensive ducting and sealed sections inside the 'mouth' of the nose ) and they would not have been needed to be fitted to the road cars to aid in any homologation issues ( ducting was 'free' on the Japanese race cars ). I've got a Japanese technical bulletin section from one of the Nissan 'Service Shuho' booklets that details the duct update in connection with aircon function. I'll see if I can find it and scan it.

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

Tony,

This young lady ( see pic ) says she can help you. :classic:

Clue: Take a close look at that front 'number' plate, and the emblem on the right hand side of the nose. One of Nissan's long lost aborted models..........

More pics to follow.

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

More pics:

[Tony D]

Oh, those are great! That's going to cause a stir.
I see I have e-mail as well. Thanks Alan!

[NZeder]

Tony,

This young lady ( see pic ) says she can help you. :classic:

Clue: Take a close look at that front 'number' plate, and the emblem on the right hand side of the nose. One of Nissan's long lost aborted models..........

More pics to follow.

Alan T.
wow that will cause a stir - given the 260z recall locally in Japan - Alan any idea's if any managed to evade the recall to have the L26/SU engine removed and replaced with the L20aE and the chassis numbers re-stamped? If so I assume they would be quite collectable. Sorry for the slight of topic. Tony that is cool just what you wanted to know - the ZG fitted to a 2+2 from factory

[Alfadog]

I thought you knew about that car NZeder?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it was a one-off 'show car' only and was never released to the public. Hence "One of Nissan's long lost aborted models"

[Tony D]

Show model or not, it surely puts to rest Nissan's Intention to have it fitted to the car. For the 74 Show, that could arguably be said it's a '75' as evidenced by the EFI on the show model as well! Power Windows, ooooh tasty!

[26th-Z]

I just happened to stumble across this picture and thought about adding it to the conversation. Two famous American race cars. The first b&w photo comes from a 1976 Datsun press release kit. It shows the eventual IMSA GTU Champion, Brad Frisselle leading the 1975 IMSA GTU Champion, Bob Sharp, around the banking at Daytona. The sister car to the BSR champion is on eBay at the moment. It was originally used as a back-up / promotional / pace car in Camel GT livery. I understand the championship car was destroyed. THe orange car is Brad Frisselle's championship car at the Walter Mitty in 2006. Both of these cars were fitted with G-noses.

[Tony D]

I've been all over Brad Frisselle's car, got some nice photos of it after the local LA shop reworked it in...95? I know it spent some time at the Peterson Automobile Museum right after the restoration. Got a few photos of it from that time period---all on film. Anybody remember film? LOL

[MikeW]

Here's a higher resolution shot of the Frisselle car taken at roughly the same instant as Chris's shot above.

[HS30-H]

- given the 260z recall locally in Japan - Alan any idea's if any managed to evade the recall to have the L26/SU engine removed and replaced with the L20aE and the chassis numbers re-stamped?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it was a one-off 'show car' only and was never released to the public. Hence "One of Nissan's long lost aborted models"

As far as I'm aware, this 'Fairlady 260ZE 2by2' model never actually made it into a sales showroom - although it must have got within an inch of being released. Even if it did, it would have soon been recalled just like those 2-seater 'Fairlady 260Z' models that got retro-fitted with L20 engines and their VIN numbers re-stamped.

Early 1974 was - by all accounts - a pretty turbulent time at Nissan. The Yom Kippur War of late 1973 had created what was called the 'Oil Shock' in Japan ( Japan having no domestic oil supply ) and there was a massive swing away from 'performance' image models of car. Nissan curbed much of their domestic racing activity in an effort to make it look as though they were taking the subject of economy seriously. Strange times, with some parallels to what we are going through today.........



Both of these cars were fitted with G-noses.

They don't appear to have much in common with the Japanese 'factory' items though. I would have thought race teams such as these would have produced their own simplified and lightened versions ( with the bumper moulded in ) that incorporated / accommodated the wider wheelarches and the front air dams / spoilers.

Question: Were such cars allowed to use these front ends in IMSA GTU races because the 'Fairlady 240ZG' model in Japan had been homologated for FIA Group 4 competition, or was it simply because similar items were 'available' for the general public to buy from Datsun Competition USA?



Alan T.

[Carl Beck]

Hi Alan:
It seems that everything evolving, moving over time, in the 70's with all the factory teams was at least linked, if not directly related.

The IMSA Series was set up with "rules" that would encourage professional racing participation by as many factory teams as possible. Over the years, talking to the guys involved - they felt that the driving force in the establishment of the rules - was Porsche. So whatever Porsche had, was using or needed to use - was allowed in the rules for everyone else.

that was the story from the Pits anyway...

FWIW,
Carl B.

[John Coffey]

Question: Were such cars allowed to use these front ends in IMSA GTU races because the 'Fairlady 240ZG' model in Japan had been homologated for FIA Group 4 competition, or was it simply because similar items were 'available' for the general public to buy from Datsun Competition USA?

IMSA GTU rules were loosley based on FIA Group 4 specs but were modified year-to-year to meet racing requirements in the US. Modification allowances early in the history of IMSA almost exactly matched FIA Group 4 specs but by the late 1970s IMSA rules had morphed so far that non-FIA homologated cars were competing and many IMSA GTO and AAGT cars were eligible for SCCA's TransAm series.

So, the answer to your question is: Both.

[Carl Beck]

Carl,
I did think of Ron when I made that last post. It figures that the story is at least partly apocryphal ( to be expected really ), but I sometimes wonder just how many kits Datsun Competition USA actually sold, and where they have all gone (?). They don't seem to pop up all that often, do they? Maybe time has been harsh on their numbers.......... It's a real shame, because they are really nicely made parts.

Hi Alan (everyone):
I'd be surprised if Datsun Competition USA actually sold more than a dozen of the complete Factory G-Nose kits. I'm sure they sold far more pairs of the headlight covers and hood hinges for use on various after-market knock-off's, ran mostly on the street.

The first aftermarket copies were pretty high quality as well, but as time drove price competition, copies of the copies were being made and the quality of the parts went down with the price. Sadly the lowest price units sold the most...

The G-Nose doesn't seem to have made it into the Datsun Competition Catalogs here until around 1976. At that time they were $1,100.00 from Nissan. While the after-market supplied them initially for $675.00, then later the less expensive copies were around $450.00

Looking at the cost/benefit in terms of the "aero" effect for performance, most of the racers here used some type of front air spoiler and rear air spoiler from 1970 on. The BRE Spook was around $45.00 then and the rear spoiler was around $65.00. The BRE headlight covers were around $65.00 a pair then as well. So $175.00 vs $1,100.00, or $675.00 for a good copy vs $1,100.00 - - - wasn't much of a choice for most.

This usually being added to a three to five year old 240-Z, that sold then in the market for around $1,800.00 to $2,500.00. At the time not really big money cars nor racers... So I'm sure that the $1,100.00 price on the factory G-Nose put a lot of prospective buyers off. California like Florida has always been filled with fiberglass specialists related to the fiberglass boat industry. So lots and lots of low overhead suppliers were looking for anything to supplement their incomes. The buyers here expected low prices on fiberglass parts...

Looking that the "aero" tests done by Car & Driver in 74
Stock 240-Z
Lift at 70mph
Front 140lbs.
Rear 20 lbs
Fuel Economy as a measure of Drag -

Adding the complete G-Nose kit:
Lift at 70mph
Front 45lbs
Rear not given
Improvement in Fuel Economy + 1.2 mpg

Adding the BRE Spook, Rear Spoiler & Headlight Covers
Lift at 70mph
Front 35lbs
Rear 40lbs Downforce
Improvement in Fuel Economy + 1.4 mpg

By 1975/76 with the introduction of the 280Z and the IMSA competition we started to see the G-Nose applied at least in appearance. Like the race cars in Japan, the G-Nose used on the track, was combined with an even lower front air spoiler. So far we haven't seen that combination tested, but there is little doubt that the additional front spoiler below the G-Nose would have yielded a significant improvement.


FWIW,
Carl B.

[26th-Z]

Concur with John Coffey's answer. Yes, loosely based on Group 4 specs but allowing such things as wider wheels - thus the extrodinary fender flares.

[Tony D]

Yes, Frisselle's car utilized a one-piece replica, not a factory G-Nose. Many racers used the one-piece for crash-replacement ease, as well as availability.
It's much quicker to swap one of those one-pieces that to screw around with the individual componentry.

Plus, most sanctioning bodies allow 'replica parts conforming to factory pieces'---so FRP knockoff fenders, unitized lower valences, etc. were common. As long as they were generally replicas that were visually indistinguishable form their stock counterparts they would be allowed. One-Piece Camaro Front Ends comes to mind. A few Dzus Fasteners and some pins and the whole clip is off for total service access.

I want to hand out a big thanks to Alan for supplying me with the copious documentation---last evening I forwarded close to 12 MB of electronic data to the SCTA for their determination on the nose issue. More than likely this protest will result in a rewriting of the rule book to update it (at least that is the word I am getting so far).

From the feedback I got, from the Rules Committee's viewpoint, there are two outstanding issues:
1) Was the G-Nose a "Production Part"? Did 500 vehicles get produced that were available from any dealer for consumption for the general public. (The FIA Homogolation Paperwork should suffice to satiate that need.)
2) Is there a connection between the Coupe and the 2+2 that would allow them to be considered 'the same series'? Which, according to SCTA Rules would allow ANY production piece available for 'the series' to be applied, wether it was available in that configuration from the factory or not.

That in my mind is clear since "R&H" Prefixes onto the base vehicle's "S30" are no different than a Camaro with an inline 250CID Six, and one with a Big Block 396---each of these Camaros would have a different VIN code sequence---yet they are still Camaros. Same as with Corvairs in early/late production, earlies have a 140CID engine, and accompanying VIN Sequence, lates have a 164CID engine, and are also Coded respectively---they are all "Corvairs".
The "G" Prefix, is more akin to something along the lines of a Four-Door versus Two-Door VIN Coding Sequence like in a Corvair, or other family sedan---they both are Corvairs, but they have different VIN Codes deliniating the four door version. This was somewhat along the lines of my supporting argument to say the 2+2 is simply a 'sister in the series'---the Series of "S30" vehicles.

This has to be resolved, as the protest will hold up the awarding of records at Bonneville not only in the G-PRO Class, but possibly ALL Production (PRO) classes, as well as all records set or broken later in the year in ElMirage.

IMO, it was poor form for the gent to do the protest at the time he did---mucked it up for everyone involved, and pressured the Rules Committee into fast action when deliberate action should be taken. There was plenty of time between our Rookie Run in November where we were within .300 MPH of breaking the record and May's event when we backed it up within 1.489mph. It should have been done in the off-season, not 3 events into the season.

In either case, wether the protest is upheld or denied, having the time in the off season to forage for replacement parts suitable (namely the STOCK Non-G-Nose Headlight Covers) would have been nice.

I forsee changes in the 2008 Rule Book! Whatever the outcome, it is what it is...

I, of course, will let everybody know what the ruling was when I get the decision. Again, thanks to Alan, and to all for the assistance and kind words of support. All we can do now is sit back and wait.

[Tony D]

On Carl's comment about the cost of the G-Nose.
When I shipped my 73 240Z back from Japan in 1989, the wonderful loaders did damage to my one-piece. At that time, the multiple piece Nissan Nose was right around $1750 complete. In Japan when I first arrived in 1984, with a favorable Yen Rate, the headlight buckets complete were 30,000 yen each ($100 thereabouts), the Upper Piece 18,000 yen, and the lower apron price escapes me, but the in-country cost from the Naha, Okinawa Prince Distributor RETAIL was somewhere well under $1000 (somewhere in the $750 range seems about correct)---within two years the exchange rate more than doubled that cost in American Dollars (Still only about $1500, complete) while the Yen Cost stayed stable. At that point, a one-piece replica was hanging on the wall of the local "Home Depot" style store for 30,000 yen (so the one-piece JDM knock-offs were a whole $100!!!), while the two piece EVA Replicas were 45,000 yen ($167). I was buying used one-piece units from junkyards for 500 yen if they had damage (and for Japanese "damage rendering it useless and not worth repair" is frighteningly little!) and complete units with hinges and minimal cracking around the bonnet corner area (where the on-piece units always seem to crack) for 1000 to 1500 yen! You can do the math for 268 yen to the dollar exchange rate.

The unit that is on my 73 right now was bought from one of my favorite junkyards on the south east part of the island...I gave the owner 1000 yen for the unit, and he gave me change of a 500 yen piece, laughing saying 'go get a hamburger!' because he couldn't believe I was willing to spend that much for a Nose with 'corner cracking'...

Ahhhh, a different world, a different time!

[Tony D]

I was informed last evening that the decision should be ready / completed during the September 21st Rules Committee Meeting.
I have been given another contact name to enquire as to if my attendance at the meeting will be allowed, and if 'rebuttal' will be required.

Curiously, since protesting us, the sod that winged has not shown for a single meet save the one where the lodged the protest.

Sunday had 2-7 mph tailwinds, and cars were running at least 3mph faster than their previous bests. Undoubtedly the record would have been ours had we chosen to run. Burned before , so we're still waiting. We still will have decent placement for running in the top 100 in October, and our concerted efforts will be in November...hopefully the breeze kicks up then, as well!

[Tony D]

AN UPDATE TO OUR G-NOSE ISSUES:
I got this e-mail on Friday, but was travelling and could not respond.
"There will be some discussion tonight... Most of the committee
agreed or suggested we not allow the nose in Production, GC and Altered... We may do a rewrite to exclude noses other than stock because it gets too confusing at best for the officials and entrants...... Board Meeting tonight
at Dad Millers"

This got me kind of set back, thinking they were going to totally knock the G-Nose out of competition, so with 'great flair and diplomacy' I got out the big guns, and mentioned Alan Thomas' reputation, his owning of the only documented ZG in the UK, and that he supplied me with the photos. I then retransmitted the 73 Magazine Photos from above, explaining again the FIA 500 car requirements, as well as accepted 'production status' amongst Z-Owners worldwide. I also explained the differences in US and Japan bumper regulations, and just to throw it in called notice to the fact that the car on the podium as a 'fuel injected 2+2' which did not appear but in two markets: USA and JDM. "This was the equivalent of the 280Z 2+2 for the USA, as everywhere else in the world, they got the 260Z. This is no different than a Camaro, Firebird, or Firebird Trans-Am...all the same car, just different trim levels and names. They are all F-Bodies, and these are all Z-Cars. Not to put too fine a point on it, but with the above reply, I was worried about ANY person with an Early Z-Car not being allowed to use the G-Nose. At this point, it was more to allow the Coupe Guys to run it if they so chose---a fight for general S30 Owners who want to contest land speed records at all, and not just 'my fight'. Well, the lady with the Blue Car seemed to have done it; as quickly afterward I received this reply, (my emphasis added) along with it being sent to all members of the Rules Committee. Bobby is the 'lead man' and Chief Scrutineer/Steward so his recommendation carrys much weight:

"After Tony sent me this email, the fact that the car
was delivered from the factory with the G nose on the
Fairlady, I totally have NO problem with him running
the G nose..... I told Tony to put all this data in a
3 ring binder and keep it with his car.... Let him run
it ....."

A THOUSAND THANKS TO ALAN THOMAS! Without his photographs there is probably no way they would have changed their minds! Thanks to all who added items to this thread, I purloined the "ZG" Catalog page and had sent it along previously, and offerred that I have a hard copy that I can present to them upon request (though mine is a 72 version). For quick E-Transmission, this was also helpful.
Thanks to you all, hopefully this will be the end of it!

[HS30-H]

Tony,
Thanks for the update, and congrats for getting this accepted and the matter settled in your favour.

In truth I suspect that the FIA Gr.4 homologation was really all that was needed. There can be little argument that the 'HS30-H' Fairlady 240ZG model existed, and was sold to the general public in high enough numbers to satisfy the homologation. If other competitors are legally mixing and matching parts and specs from other variants of the models they are using, then the factory-style G-nose on your team's car has to be legal too.

I suspect the main problem - and this is something that we see so often with our cars - is the basic lack of knowledge on the variants that were sold outside the English-speaking world.




Maybe you should now start saving up for an S20 engine!? :smoke:

Cheers,
Alan T.

[Tony D]

S20 is definately a no-no. Everything says only slightly more than 400 were produced over a several year span, and for production acceptance you need 500 in a given year.

But I may have jumped the gun. Things have taken a bizzare twist, and the American-Centric contingent has started speaking up using (if you can believe this) Ford Roadsters as a reference point. They may actually now segregate the S30's into "JDM" and "US" specification. I don't know WHAT they will do about UK or other market versions... I am now sending out e-mail after e-mail frantically trying to keep logic in the mix.

I can see the argument against allowing it on a 2+2, or even a 280Z...but they are now considering restricting it to RHD only. And then only if someone can prove it came with it from the factory. I had heard about the "Anti-Japanese, Pro-American Bias" on the board, and it is now seeming to rear it's head at the last hour.

Education goes only so far. I'll stop there before I get in trouble.