Fighting Rust...Help

[zcarmannn]

There is a bit of rust on my car. Just curious if any of you have heard of POR-15. I'm pretty sure it helps to prevent rust but does it actually get rid of it? I'm always afraid these products don't really work.

https://www.autobodytoolmart.com/p-14093-17524.aspx

[EScanlon]

I've used it and I like it. Search under POR-15 and you'll find tons of information.

You might also send an e-mail to Bruce Palmer at info@zerorust.com he sells a product called Zero-Rust which has had some good reviews.

FWIW
E

[jmortensen]

Is that the same Bruce Palmer that is part of ZTherapy?

[ChrisA]

Is that the same Bruce Palmer that is part of ZTherapy?


Yes. That's him.

Chris

[ZCCOR#109]

it covers and stops rust, does not get rid of it.

get rid means cut out or sand blast

[240ZX]

it covers and stops rust, does not get rid of it.

get rid means cut out or sand blast

I believe POR-15 actually chemically alters the rust (iron oxide). Correct me if I'm mistaken.

[JimmyZ]

Here's a page I made which might help.

http://warbuddies.homestead.com/RestoHelp.html

Jim

[Bruce Palmer]

Hey all,
Both Zero Rust and POR-15 encapsulate the surface starving the oxygen from the steel. They are different technolgies but the function is the same. Seal the steel, if the sound rust you're going over can't breath it can't grow, very basic stuff really.

Neither product is a convertor. Most of the convertors call for "sealing" the surface after conversion is complete. From that standpoint both products make the conversion step unnecessary if not total counter productive.

[Surfsup]

por 15 is an amazing product. dont be scared. bondo is also helpful.:knockedou

[khughes]

POR15 for president!

[240kconvertible]

Vote for Por!!!

I love the stuff except when spraying it as it stays on your hands and face for days. Make sure you buy metal ready, marine clean and por tie coat.

You need the metal ready to prepare the surface and the tie coat so you don't have to sand the por after coats. It says on the tech sheet that por sticks very well onto rusty surfaces. It dries from moisture and exposure to moisture only makes it harder and more angry :angry: .

If you end up doing your whole car in it it gets quite expensive, so be prepared to cough up $$

[ilikemyz]

some one told me not to do the whole car with these things.

I have rust (surface) on the hood and a tad on both doors.

I already used a palm sander, and took off the rust from these sections.

should I take off all the paint, even if it is not rusty, or am I just creating more rust opportunities?

and can I put POR on these surfaces first, then top coat with the desired paint color? or is there a better way to do this. I cant sand blast for $ reasons.

thanks

[BRE-240Z]

I prefer Zero Rust, if only because POR15 kills you if you breathe it......

Well, eventually.

Seriously, I've used quite a bit of Zero Rust in my time and it is good stuff.

[ilikemyz]

and this is something I can just put onto bare sanded clean metal, and then topcoat with a primer, and then paint>>??

[BRE-240Z]

and this is something I can just put onto bare sanded clean metal, and then topcoat with a primer, and then paint>>??

I don't work for Zero Rust, Bruce does. But it's good stuff. Read.......

Zero Rust is easy to use and can be applied over fully or marginally prepared surfaces. Sandblasting is not a requirement and top coating is completely optional.

http://www.zerorust.com/

[barby27]

Rust Bullet is also another good product to think about.

77 280Z

http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e106/babry27/77%20Datsun%20Restoration/

[EScanlon]

Zero Rust also recommends the use of a "properly fitted organic vapor/particulate respirator approved by NIOSH/MSHA for protection" from the MSDS for Zero Rust.

Which is the same type of precaution for POR and should be applied to ANY type of paint/protectant of this nature.

Both POR and Zero Rust are rust-encapsulators. You'll find testimonials for both abound here and other websites. Same with ease of use, both have their proponents.

One note, while Zero Rust specifically states that it is NOT for submersion applications, POR on the other hand does not exclude that option.

There is also another product called Rust Bullet that makes the claim that it dehydrates the rust and therefore stops the rust. It's "one step" process is actually two coatings done no less than two hours apart. Not necessarily a negative, but definitely something to consider. Additionally it states that if the material is scraped or breached to the metal that rust will re-occur. That would seem to be a given of any of the products above.

Probably the biggest first question for you to resolve is money. How much are you willing to expend and just how much of the car are you planning on protecting. Then check for availability of the material you choose.

Ask questions here, you may find all the help you need from people that have used one or the other or all of the products.

E

[ilikemyz]

well, thanks these are all great suggestions.

as far as money, and or time. I am 38 years old, and have a lot of time ahead of me, and for money, well, there I am not as well off as I am in age.

I would only need the por, or other product t cover the exterior of the hood, and both doors. doesn’t sound like a lot of change
$$ to me.

back to my other question, say that 65% of the hood is surface rusted, should i sand off 100
5 of the paint, and por the whole thing?

or is it better to leave what is good, and fix what is bad? it may all end up rusting if I don’t do the whole thing now. I would rather do it all once than 1/2 now, and 1/2 in a few years from now.

but, I am open to other peoples trial and errors. I want to learn from you alls mistakes, and I hope you can learn from mine.

thanks, from NY.

[240kconvertible]

I would go and get the hood dipped and then apply por on the inside only, remember things rust from the inside out so if you have rust on the outside you can bet there will be rust on the inside which will just keep on going unless you treat it. If you do it this way you can guarantee that you won't need to do it again, I can't stress how important it is to get it right first time around you'll save $$ in the long run. If you use por make sure you don't get any runs in the job as it's really hard to sand once dried. Because of this sanding hardship it's mostly used just to treat the really rusty areas and not whole panels. I did my whole car in the stuff with the addition of runs and it has given me headaches on the large flat panel areas. Just use a good quality 2k paint for the outside panels.

Por really comes in handy when you are putting it over areas that still have rust on them and it states in the tech sheet that it will bond better to a lightly rusted surface than perfectly clean metal. If you use por make sure you buy por tie coat to go over the top of the por that way you won't have to sand the por at all.

If I could turn back time I wouldn't have done all the outside panel areas on my car, I'd just have used 2k paint and only have done small areas with por, this would have saved me a lot of time and $$$. If you dip the panels you will need to lay it flat and upside down while you use a degreraser gun to spray paint in the holes. You lay it flat and upside down so the paint falls on the top & bottom surfaces.

Hope this helps

[beandip]

some one told me not to do the whole car with these things.

I have rust (surface) on the hood and a tad on both doors.

I already used a palm sander, and took off the rust from these sections.

should I take off all the paint, even if it is not rusty, or am I just creating more rust opportunities?

and can I put POR on these surfaces first, then top coat with the desired paint color? or is there a better way to do this. I cant sand blast for $ reasons.

thanks

Dont Hi-jack the thread . Pose your own .

[beandip]

and this is something I can just put onto bare sanded clean metal, and then topcoat with a primer, and then paint>>??

NO , After POR paint , if prepared properly , cures. Regular paint or anything else will not adhere. POR is fantastic for your floors and undercarriage and panel's that are not to be finished . It seals the metal and will stop the rust. but only if you follow the directions exactly. Mariene Clean followed with Metal ready. Then POR paint. You can paint over the POR , if you do so while it is still tacky to the touch. Other than that either sand it or prime with Ti coat primer. Then you are good to go. POR paint cures so hard it is difficult to sand and is like sanding porcelain . Use it for rust repair . On the exterior of the car , sand off the surface to clean metal and prime with epoxy self etching primer then primer and paint. Bondo Is NOT a rust preventive. It is porous and will allow moisture to continue to rust the metal. Gary

[240kconvertible]

NO , You can paint over the POR , if you do so while it is still tacky to the touch. \

You can only "spray" a light mist of 2k primer over the por while it is still tacky, a normal thinckness coat will stop the por drying properly and the use of most other paints will stuff the coat as well.

Using the metal ready is a pretty weird thing to do as you have to soak the area treated with water once finished, it starts to get a little surface rust after the water has dried.

[Nissanman]

Using the metal ready is a pretty weird thing to do as you have to soak the area treated with water once finished, it starts to get a little surface rust after the water has dried.
True, the Metal Prep, as we call it, needs to be neutralised with clean water once it has done its' job.
I find that if you wipe the surface well and dry with paper towels and spray liberally with metholated spirits [de-natured alcohol] you can evict the moisture quicksmart.
I use a pump pack to squirt and spray the metho into all the nooks and crannies to displace any moisture.
Follow that with compressed air [through a water trap] to force dry the metho.
Warm to hot weather is great since the metho will evaporate very quickly on its own.
Then a thorough wipe over with Prepsol [Silicon Off, De-greaser etc.] and the yellow/tan colour comes right off and the metal is squeaky clean for etch primer.
All this is well and good, but the environment at the time must be warm and dry.
Cool or humid and you are going to have a battle to get it right:angry:

[ilikemyz]

thanks again all.

I think I can get this together now.

I wasn’t intending to "Hi-jack the thread "

I was merely staying on a pre created subject ,without having to create a new thread when one already existed.

am I bad,,,,, oops

[240kconvertible]

True, the Metal Prep, as we call it, needs to be neutralised with clean water once it has done its' job.
I find that if you wipe the surface well and dry with paper towels and spray liberally with metholated spirits [de-natured alcohol] you can evict the moisture quicksmart.
I use a pump pack to squirt and spray the metho into all the nooks and crannies to displace any moisture.
Follow that with compressed air [through a water trap] to force dry the metho.
Warm to hot weather is great since the metho will evaporate very quickly on its own.
Then a thorough wipe over with Prepsol [Silicon Off, De-greaser etc.] and the yellow/tan colour comes right off and the metal is squeaky clean for etch primer.
All this is well and good, but the environment at the time must be warm and dry.
Cool or humid and you are going to have a battle to get it right:angry:


So that's how it's done, I was filling in my door handles today and when I see that little bit of yellow under the por (visible due to sanding) I get worried about it lasting even though the coat has stuck so well it's takes a power sander to get through it, sanding by hand just takes to long to get through por. I wish I had of known this method to do as I would have liked to not have the yellow tan all over my panels.

Cheers for the tip.

I love a good thread hijack ilikemyz and zcarmannn seems to have forgotten he even started this thread. Let us know what you end up doing with your bonnet.

[240kconvertible]

True, the Metal Prep, as we call it, needs to be neutralised with clean water once it has done its' job.
I find that if you wipe the surface well and dry with paper towels and spray liberally with metholated spirits [de-natured alcohol] you can evict the moisture quicksmart.
I use a pump pack to squirt and spray the metho into all the nooks and crannies to displace any moisture.
Follow that with compressed air [through a water trap] to force dry the metho.
Warm to hot weather is great since the metho will evaporate very quickly on its own.
Then a thorough wipe over with Prepsol [Silicon Off, De-greaser etc.] and the yellow/tan colour comes right off and the metal is squeaky clean for etch primer.
All this is well and good, but the environment at the time must be warm and dry.
Cool or humid and you are going to have a battle to get it right:angry:


So that's how it's done, I was filling in my door handles today and when I see that little bit of yellow under the por (visible due to sanding) I get worried about it lasting even though the coat has stuck so well it's takes a power sander to get through it, sanding by hand just takes to long to get through por. I wish I had of known this method to do as I would have liked to not have the yellow tan all over my panels.

Cheers for the tip.

I love a good thread hijack ilikemyz and zcarmannn seems to have forgotten he even started this thread. Let us know what you end up doing with your bonnet.

[Nissanman]

You MUST use Prepsol, Silicon Off, or a similar product prior to painting.
It will remove silicon, grease, oil, all the nasty contaminants that you may have left on the surface.
[The major contributor of crud is the human hand:finger:]
You wipe it on with a saturated rag and wipe it off with clean rag in one fluid motion, one rag in each hand.
I use paper towels but you have to then make sure the fluff is removed.
You need to use a tack cloth anyway so that is when the towel residue is collected:paranoid:
Then a quick squirt of compressed air, through a water trap, and you're good to go:)

[240kconvertible]

Are you talking about general painting or Por specific painting?

I didn't have to use prepsol due to my car being sand blasted which por states is then ready for coating and all my panels were dipped to remove paint and any residue. The only spot that wasn't treated this way was the rear quater panels which were prepsol'd before the metal ready, was applied. In saying this I still didn't like the use of water at the end even if I know it's for the best.

[Nissanman]

I can't comment on the preparation for POR, since I have never used it.
If that is what POR say in their destruction sheet, fair enough:)
However for conventional painting, the metal prep is done to neutralise any remaining rust and prepare the surface for etching.
It needs to be washed of and itself neutralised with clean water.
The last steps prior to applying the etch primer, is a good wash down with Prepsol/Silicon Off wiped off with another clean rag, then a wipe over with a Tack cloth.
There is no point in using Prepsol prior to Metal ready:rolleyes:
The painting is the easy part:cheeky:

[240kconvertible]

[QUOTE=Nissanman;236062]There is no point in using Prepsol prior to Metal ready:rolleyes:
QUOTE]


There is if you used paint stripper to get the paint off and you've run out of marine clean :p

I've never heard of anyone using metal ready without using por, did you use the same metal ready from the por kit?

[Nissanman]

There is the problem.
I'm using Metal Prep as a generic term, not as what POR may specify/supply.
It is essentially phosphoric acid which you dilute in clean water.
It etches the surface of the metal and converts any remaining iron oxide to black iron phosphate.

Probably not at all suitable to the POR process:finger:
Stick to the POR list of treatments, by all means.

Apologies if I confused the issue:nervous:

[EScanlon]

Prepsol instead of Marine Clean is a poor substitute.

Most paint strippers have some form of MEK as the main "stripping" agent to dissolve and destroy the bond of previous paint applications. Prepsol would be fine as an oil, wax, or grease cutter, but probably next to useless against MEK, Acetone and the other chemicals in stripper. IIRC some of the paint strippers can also be neutralized with plain old water (just watch out for the runoff).

You'd be better off using plain old dishwashing detergent solution instead of Prepsol as a substitute for Marine Clean. Marine Clean is just a strong cleaner. Simple Green is yet another good substitute as well.

I'd be more concerned about the Metal Ready, Phosphoric Acid wash, or Metal Prep solution (old Ditzler term) reacting with the Prepsol (or plain old Wax and Grease Remover). Many Wax and Grease Removers use Mineral Spirits as part of their base.

POR is an excellent coating for areas that you won't be applying a visible finish to, such as undercarriages, inside fender wells, frame rails, etc. I wouldn't recommend it be used as a primer base because of the difficulty in sanding and getting a smooth finish. Yes, it does do a great job of self-leveling but it can and does set such that it may end up with a non-smooth finish.

There is a Tie-Coat Primer that can be applied over the POR and sanded smooth. However, the extra expense of the preparation and the POR and Tie-Coat primer instead of Epoxy Primer and a Fill Primer wouldn't justify it's use.

FWIW
E

[240kconvertible]

I actually used a dishwashing liquid concentrate before the prepwash (not prepsol I thought they were the same) then washed with water then used the metal ready. I didn't mention the dishwashing liquid as I thought someone may have a laugh at using that. Guess I was wrong.

It's not as bad as you think using por as an undercoat but it is as you state very expensive. You just have to make sure there are no runs in it as they cause big problems. If you use a high build primer you can cover the por quite easily but the runs will get you.

With the tie coat your not supposed to sand it just keep it clean and apply the next coat of primer. I don't know why but the instructions say the next coat on top of por tiecoat will adhere better if you don't sand it. So all you have to do is spray por then spray tie coat then spray 2k primer and you have a very durable and rust proof barrier on the car. You won't need to pick up the sand paper until the 2k primer is on.

If you live near the sea or are taking your car to England like me it is worth the money putting the por and tiecoat on. That way you'll be able to sleep at night knowing the rust monster won't get to your pride and joy again.

[EScanlon]

Actually the Tie-Coat Primer is their sandable primer. That is one of the key characteristics touted in their catalog.

They have another product that is just a Self-Etching Primer for application over cured POR which is not a high build primer and it also specifically says so.

As to why it would say to NOT sand the Tie Coat, I can only speculate, but I'll admit that I have NOT sanded it the last couple of times I've used it.

As far as spraying POR...be very careful. In fact, without plenty of ventilation AND a good breathing mask I would advise against it.

Unfortunately, the only way I've gotten POR to spray is to use a venturi type air blower to spray un-thinned POR. I have tried spraying using both a HVLP and a regular venturi type spray gun and you just can't thin it down enough to get it to spray properly. That's how I came up with the air blower nozzle set up. With that and 30-40 psi you can spray the inside of nooks and crannies in seconds and get a good film thickness. I've had very good luck with this method and there is very little "mist" spray to worry about. In fact, I was able to spray both insides of the rear fenders of a Z from the tail to the doors and up into the roof channels AND the complete inner tub of the cowl in less than an hour. I can't imagine how long it would have taken to hand brush the same area, but I CAN imagine the mess.

Don't feel bad about using the dishwashing concentrate, you'd be surprised at how many of us look for solutions that are "out of the box". One advantage to that instead of the Marine Clean is that it wouldn't etch your polished aluminum which the Marine Clean seems to do. (It's probably removing every last bit of polish, but it sure feels as if it etched it. Don't ask how I know, but DO trust me that it DOES.)

FWIW
Enrique

[240kconvertible]

I haven't been able to get my high build primer or por products to spray out of any of my guns, in the end I used a engine degreaser gun to spray them on. It worked really well but would put a bit too much on or if you turned the nozzel down it would mist too much.

I'll try using your method for the underside when I get round to it. Could you post a photo of what your set up looks like?

I tried to search on the net but didn't come up with the goods.

Cheers Andrew

[EScanlon]

Well the part number from Harbor Freight (37346 Syphon Spray Blow Gun) is coming up as either not available online or discontinued. This is a shame, as all it needed for cleanup was to replace the PVC tubing and a quick clean up of the tip.

It was a simple Air Blow Gun with a venturi nozzle at the end of the tip. Looks almost identical to this one:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=3962
except it had a tube screwed in to the end of the tip and an open nozzle in place of the rubber tip.

I suppose you could do something similar with this blow gun:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=42939
by either brazing, or somehow making a venturi right at the tip. That way when the air gets released it sucks the POR up through the delivery hose and the air blows it into the cavity you wish to paint.

Just recently while working on a Roadster, I had to drill some access holes to spray the inside of my rocker panels. The Roadster does not have the holes in the rocker panel that the Z has. Then in order to spray all the sides, I used this item:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=3953

While cleanup with that item was a bit more involved, the syphon tube is inside the air delivery tube and it flows THROUGH the body of the gun, which means you have to completely disassemble it if you want to clean it.

Hope the links work, and although Harbor Freight may be a U.S. only store, surely the pictures will help you find something at your local discount tool place.

HTH
Enrique

[EScanlon]

By the way, the High Build Primer may just need additional thinning in order to spray. Check with the paint shop and see what you can use to reduce it.

Most primers, even Epoxy, can be thinned somewhat to allow spraying them with a conventional suction (bottom cup) spray gun. If your gun isn't allowing you to do so even after you've thinned the primer down, you may need to check to see if you're using the correct diameter air hoses.

Too small a hose won't give you enough volume of air or the correct pressure to allow a syphon gun to suck up the heavier high build primers.

You also want to check the pressure AT THE GUN and not at the regulator just off the compressor and then have 50 feet of air hose before it gets to the gun. A small distance is OK, but not a long distance.

For this reason, some people will connect the compressor to a regulator / filter / water separator in the booth, then will use a shorter length of hose to connect to the spray gun.

Hope this helps
Enrique

[240kconvertible]

The third link looks like it would do the job, I'll have to look into getting one as I still have a few hard to reach spots to spray into.

I was able to thin out the 2k high build primer but to get it to spray it would be double th recommended thinning amount. I was using a 3mm tip on the gun. It doesn't matter for me anymore as nearly all the priming is finished, just a few little spots to get now.

Cheers for you tips