More Injector Questions

[Mike]

I'm probably going to make a purchase tomorrow unless someone
tells me that these injectors are bad. However, here are the
specs of the fuel injectors for my '75.

Aechlin (ecklin?) Fuel Injectors
by Dana Corporation

They are around $75 each at my local Napa shop. Courtesy will
sell original injectors to me for around $100 ea.

This is something I don't want to skimp. Someone told me that
the OEM FI's are Bosch.

What do you guys think?

[2ManyZs]

100 sounds a lttle high to me, 75 sounds more like it. Did you price the replacement injectors at MSA? There old catalog lists them for 50 each, so I'm pretty sure they have gone up some but wonder how much.

Never heard of that brand from NAPA. Wonder what brand Auto Zone or Pep Boys (or any other chain store) could get if they can get them at all.

Just be sure they have the O-rings with them, or you'll have to buy them seperately!

I seriously doubt the injectors will provide much performance upgrade at all, that would come from a big throat throttle body or ECU improvements. Course there are the injectors for the ZX Turbo but they are in excess of 150 each.:eek:

[Zvoiture]

Ditto...the actual 'brand name' of the NAPA's does not ring a bell--however, I have heard of many happy people with NAPA injectors in their Z's....You said cost was no object, but have you--or anybody else--tried the ACCEL injectors? I just noticed them in the JCWhitney cattledog (but I'm sure they are available anywhere ACCEL is sold) and they were like, $35, 45, and $55, depending on the size you need. They even gave a formula for figuring how big you need...sounded like a good price and ought to be a decent product. Anybody try?

steve77

[Mike]

Okay guys, thanks a bunch. I'll probably go ahead and buy the Napa injectors today. But, as per 2mZ's advice, I'll make sure they come with O rings! I'd hate to buy these just to find out that they don't come with the kit. I'll be stuck yet again.

[2ManyZs]

Just as a reminder Mike. When you take the clips off the plugs on the injectors don't pull on them, use a pick or small screwdriver to GENTLY pry them loose. They get very brittle, and if you try to force them they will break and then it's time to buy new ones. Luckily MSA has replacements if you need them, plus the clips if one "flies" away.

There are two o-rings that go on the injector, the small one on the nozzle where it mounts into the intake, and a larger one where it mounts into the mounting block. Don't forget to check or replace the short lines on the rail at the same time, if you are going to the trouble of changing injectors you may as well replace these at the same time. Use fuel injection hose on them as they do have quite a bit of pressure in the rail. If they are bulging at all it's time to replace them.

[Mike]

Thanks Kieth,

Ya, I ended up purchasing the injectors today from Napa. I got a hell of a deal because they are holding a 25% off sale for the holiday weekend.

I also purchased O rings and the little gaskets for the retaining blocks.

And, yes, I broke a couple of the plastic clips on the electrical connector. Arrgh. :mad:

I am going to take some pictures of this whole experience and post a 'how to' article on the site. I just need to find my @#$@% charger to my digital camera. Luckily, my brother has the same camera and I can use his charger if I need it.

[m]

[2ManyZs]

Oops, too late huh? Meant to remind ya in the first post, just got in a hurry.

Hmm, my camera is charged, too bad I can't get the darn thing to take a pic in focus. Guess I need to play with it some more, without messing it up! :eek:

[Mike]

Well, I got the 280z started today! The injectors were the main culprit. Not to mention the fact that all of the hoses were TOTALLY screwed beyond belief.

It looks like the previous owner might have replaced an injector (or two) and used regular fuel hose. BAD BAD. You must use high pressure EFI hose. Damn stuff is expensive. It cost me $5.10 per foot at Napa. :eek:

Anyway, I installed all brand new fuel injectors, hoses, and a new fuel filter. I also replaced all the bolts, o-rings, and gaskets.

The fuel rail was plugged and had little bits of black rubber in it. No wonder the injectors were plugged!! This car was sitting since 1985 and I'm sure the hoses eroded and became brittle in that time. When I attempted to start it by putting new fuel in the system... I'm sure many of those bits got stuck in the injectors.

She's online now and purrs like a kitten. She can sometimes idle rough, so, I'm looking into that. Other projects on this car include new brakes and flush out the braking system. I *HOPE* I don't have to install all new master/slave cylinders. But, considering the price I paid for it.... it won't be a big deal to buy these new items.

I'll probably have about $2,000 into it before I'm done. Not to mention that I also took my 15" Boyd rims with 50 series Falken tires and used them on this car. UGH! Looks like I'll be purchasing new rims/tires for my 240z resto project whenever that gets done.

[Mike]

Here's a pict of the injectors from Napa. Frankly, they look almost identical to OEM. I mean, this is soo close.

[Mike]

Here's a shot with part of the fuel rail installed.

And, I must say, thank GOD I have a copy of the Zcar Microfiche CD (http://www.240z.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Zcar_Microfiche_CD&file=index)!!! It came in handy for this project. After a few months waiting to get a fuel pump and fuel injectors, I forgot how to put it all back together. I simply printed out the assembly diagram from the CD, carried the paper out to my garage, and went to work. Shamless plug, but, it's a tool I'll use for all my Z projects.

[Mike]

And, the mad scientist at work. (bro shot this pict w/out me knowing) :D

[2ManyZs]

Congrats, sounds like you now have one less project to do.

BTW, good thing you stated that that is you in the pic, some people might have mistook you for Bill Gates, not that you are a bit of a computer nerd, but you do look a bit alike in that shot. Too bad we all can't have his money if we looked like him. We would all go have our hair cut and be buying up glasses huh?LOL

Is it idling rough after a cold start? Did you check or replace the cold start valve (injector) in the front of the intake? It may be loaded up with the same junk as the rest of the injectors. It's basically your choke on the FI cars.

[Zvoiture]

Wow. Every hair in it's place...hands aren't even dirty. You're like Martha under the hood. But the hammer on the windshield?:finger:

Funny that there's 7 injectors on a 6 cylinder engine, huh?

The electrical plug on the end of the air reg likes to come unglued and then it spins in it's socket and the lever that runs the bypass to the TB does not contact the valve. The car will run good, but cold idle will be rough or slow.

steve77

[Mike]

Thanks for the reply guys...

No, I didn't replace the cold start injector because I didn't have any idea about it at the time of my order. I better get down to Napa today while they are holding the 25% off sale over the Memorial Day weekend and purchase one. I am completely happy with the new injectors that they sold me. I suspect that they are OEM (at least OEM from '75).

And, Steve, I'll check that electrical connection, thanks.

I was also running the 'pull each plug wire to see if the engine gets rough' test and noticed that electrical current escapes from the plug wires (owch!!). That's my little test to make sure each plug is firing as they should. Anyway, I got shocked a few times. The plug wires definitely need to be replaced.

The hammer is rubber. :P

Bill Gates, eh? I don't think Bill would work on his own car. In fact, I don't think Bill even did ANY of his own work during his entire career. Go figure. The richest man in the world doesn't do his own work. Maybe we should all take a look at that and ponder.

Hell no, I *LOVE* working on Z's. Between the MSA show, this site, all of my new Z friends, and working on this car for the past few weeks.... my Z bug is back.

Except, maybe now I like EFI even better than carbs. Oops.. nobody heard me say that.

[m]

[Zvoiture]

Just put you 'best' old injector in the CS.

I think VB has the best deal on plug wires. 8.5 mm by Crane for $30-something a set. With the wires I would definitely put a new cap and rotor on...and please don't tell me you have the original coil on! When yu finish geting the ignition and EFI all spruced up, take it to a professional (hopefully a Z person) and have him do some good diagnostics to get everything ticking together. you won't believe how well it will run then!

Oh, this will start an argument for sure, but if you have some of those $10 Champion spitfire-crossfire-platinum-titanium-four-way super-resistor-rocket-science-unbelievably-super-duper-high-performance-gauranteed to blow your mind-spark plugs in there, YANK THEM OUT and put the NGK's back in. NGK BPR6ES or the cooler range BPR7ES (NAPA# 2023?)

And while you're at NAPA, get a 1773 oil filter and add an extra quart to your system.

GAWD, I love NAPA.

steve77

[Zvoiture]

"She can sometimes idle rough, so, I'm looking into that. "

Vacuum leaks, vacuum leaks, VACUUM LEAKS. Check everythig and then check it again and again. Dipstick tight? PVC operational? cracks in hoses: PCV hose? The hose from the valve cover vent to the tee at the AR takes a beating and must be oil-proof hose. Vac lines to EGR and TB. Boot from AFM to TB must be perfect. I saw your A/c, so there a couple of long ones that go around to the passenger side from the intake. ANY leaks ANYWHERE will affect idle.

steve77

[Mike]

Originally posted by Zvoiture
Just put you 'best' old injector in the CS.

I think VB has the best deal on plug wires. 8.5 mm by Crane for $30-something a set. With the wires I would definitely put a new cap and rotor on...and please don't tell me you have the original coil on! When yu finish geting the ignition and EFI all spruced up, take it to a professional (hopefully a Z person) and have him do some good diagnostics to get everything ticking together. you won't believe how well it will run then!

The cold start injector looks totally different than the others. It's shorter and smaller. Will one of the other injectors fit in there?

Ya, this car still has the original coil and plug wires!! That's my next replacement (aside from the braking system).

[m]

[Mike]

Well, damnit.... the engine is dead.

I came home tonight with a grin on my face because I wanted to jump in the 280z and crank her over.

Much to my surprise.... the first crank resulted in some pretty bad metal smashing sounds.

SHIT

I cranked a few more times... still metal smashing/grinding sounds emitting from the engine compartment.

I immediately removed the valve cover and looked to make sure everything was ok. Yep. Nothing seems out of place.

Pulled the plugs and looked inside the cylinders. I can't see much in there, but, everything appears normal.

Cranked it again... more metal smashing/grinding. When it cranks... the noise is a loud bang every few turns of the starter.... hmmmm

I wonder if the valves are sticking open and maybe the piston is hitting them. Dunno for sure.

I'm pissed. I had such a good day yesterday and got a lot done. Why did it all come crashing down today?

(sigh)

[2ManyZs]

Hmm, this doesn't sound so good.:mad:

Try this, pull the plugs and turn it over. Still making noise? Try turning it over by hand. I'm just grasping at straws here, but it might be the starter. Either it isn't engaging the flywheel completely or the flywheel is losing teeth. It will make an awful racket it it is skipping on the teeth, hard to tell without hearing it, but keep yer fingers crossed, maybe it won't be so bad after all.

If you had it running before without any funny noises this would be my first guess. We'll keep our fingers crossed:rolleyes:

[Mike]

Hmmm... good idea. Maybe, since I had to crank the hell out of the starter, it decided to break up.

I'll pull it out tomorrow night. Thanks for the idea. Now, I'm off to play Jedi Knight II. See ya!!

[Mike]

Originally posted by Zvoiture
Just put you 'best' old injector in the CS.

Steve, I don't think that will work. I looked at the cold start injector and it has a side-inlet. The injector is totally different. They might have changed it for later model cars. (shrug)

[Mike]

Originally posted by 2ManyZs
Hmm, this doesn't sound so good.:mad:

Bad news Keith... cylinders 6 and 2 have ZERO compression. The engine is toast. I'm soo pissed. Oh well, at least the price was right on the car (donated to me).

I'm looking at rebuilt engines right now. I don't think I want to rebuild this one myself. I don't have the tools or the knowledge to do it.

[2ManyZs]

Well, that isn't good at all. Must have had a bad timing chain or tensioner and when you started it up it jumped the cam timing.

If it is the valves being bent, you should be able to just get a rebuilt head or rebuild the one you have and I'd definately do a timing chain while you are at it. Of course if it has damaged the pistons, well, we know the rest of the story.

In answering your other post, I ran an ATK crate long block in my 75 for a couple years on the street, then raced the car from 89-84 with absolutely no problems with the motor. IMO the ATK crate engine would be an excellent motor for a street car. They do quality work and the motors themselves are not too expensive. You might try to go to them directly instead of buying one from MSA, you might be able to save a few bucks.

[Mike]

I pulled the valve cover and everything seems to be fine. That's why I don't get it. I'm thinking maybe the valves are sticking in the open position. When the cylinder comes up, it smacks the valve and it closes.

Nothing prevents the engine from cranking over. The chain is rotating fine as well. I dunno... I'll dig into it tonight.

[2ManyZs]

Mike, sounds like you may get your hands dirty on this one.

One possibility is that it dropped the valve seats, or maybe they were hardly there before. Another possibility is the valve guides have dropped or the valves have siezed in them. If the valves have hit the piston and bent there has to be a reason for it, that is what I'm wondering about. Guess the only way to find out is to get your helper and yank the head off to find out what has really happened. BTW, don't forget to use the block on the cam chain or you'll end up pulling the front cover too.