Hurricane Katrina

[chickenwafer]

I saw one the news last night and this morning the devastation left behind in the south by hurricane Katrina. I would like to extend my condolences and prayers to everyone who is left in the wake or has a loved one in the effected area. I know in New Orleans the damage is great, as well in other areas. Just want you all to know that everyone else is pulling for you. Hang in there.


Dave

[TomoHawk]

Me too.

BTW, My gf's name is Katrina (Kathy) LOL

[1972zed]

I went home at lunch to watch the flooding on CNN. The levee broke and 80% of NOLA is under 20 ft of water. Its horrible and the devistation is only slowly being realized. People have punched holes through roofs of houses to get up on the roof to be evacuated. I can only imagine how many others are trapped with no means of escape.

I have an office job in Canada. Today I'm wearing a pair of faded blue jeans and a black t-shirt that says simply"Blues Club 216 Bourbon". My heart is with you all.

[ChrisA]

I have a sister in New Orleans. She got out of town before the storm hit. Her house is now under water. Luckily she loaded her mini van with as much clothing as would fit. Houses can be rebuilt, the loss of life can't be fixed.

Chris

[Fun_in_my_z]

Chris i hope eveything is ok with her. My uncle is in the reserves, he gets a free tour thanks to uncle Sam.

[kenz240z]

I have a cousin who recently bought a house in New Orleans. He evacuated a couple of days ahead of Katrina to Jackson, MS. Mom told me he's doing ok.

The poor guy, a few years ago he had a boat that he fixed up and lived on. While in the harbor at New Orleans, his boat was struck by a tanker. At least he escaped from that incident unhurt, just homeless... now he's homeless again.

He'll be back on his feet in no time, though. He has always been a very resourceful fellow with a grand sense of adventure and an indomitable spirit. Furthermore, he does underwater welding & repair on oil rigs. I imagine he'll be busy for the next several years.

His family has had a few close calls this year. My aunt, uncle & two cousins (his siblings) were in Thailand on the coast the day before the tsunami struck there. If they had been there a day later...

[ChrisA]

Thanks Bill. She'll have to come back up here and get on here feet again.

Ken, my thoughts are with your family. Thankfully he's okay.

Chris

[Fun_in_my_z]

Just found out my boyscout masters lost his brother and son in New Orleanes

[ChrisA]

Just found out my boyscout masters lost his brother and son in New Orleanes

Bill sorry to hear that. Lost as in dead or lost as in lost contact? Hang in there.

Chris

[Fun_in_my_z]

His son was going to school there and staying with the uncle for free room and board.
Lived on burban(sp) street.

No contact. dont know if they are alive or not. The Kid (Jeremy) is a good friend of mine

[seerex]

We have tried to get in contact with relatives in New Orleans and Jackson. Got an email from one in Alabama that they were ok but they could not get in contact with many of them and that the town next door was pretty much erased . Very sad situation . Meet some guys leaving the Orlando area with a caravan of airboats headed that way and I know 2 of Orange county rescue specialty units were deployed as well as Miami's structure team. Unfortunately I think it will get much worse before it gets better.

[TomoHawk]

I'm kind of surprised that whever I see a flooded area, there aren't many ( or any ) people on jet skis doing rescues. I mean NewOrleans is fairly close to the ocean that people could easily tow one to the beach for the day. The same with Florida. Maybe they don't have as many parked in garages as I see in the burbs where I live?

[seerex]

Unfortunately alot of times the jet skis that are there locally are already sunk or damaged and in new Orleans case they might not be able to get to them. I saw them using them in rescue on CNN and FOX , they are great tools for rescue no prob to hurt anyone with they are easy to manuver and they can pretty much be ran anywhere . But you also have to remeber that new orleans isn't exactly a rich town , most of the residents live below the poverty line , I have visited there and I can say it isn't any miami or beverly hills. Here in florida the flood waters receed pretty quickly and it rarely gets to the point where you couldn't use a military vehicle to get through the water but I saw pics of the water over the roofs and such . Its just sad.

[260DET]

Saw some film tonight of the devestation, its terrible :( Just hope at least that you and yours are OK America.

[george71z]

So far, I haven't seen any outpouring of aid to us from our "allies" around the world. I guess they won't need our help when another earthquake or tsunami comes calling.

[ChrisA]

So far, I haven't seen any outpouring of aid to us from our "allies" around the world. I guess they won't need our help when another earthquake or tsunami comes calling.

I'm not touching this with a ten foot storm surge.

[Fun_in_my_z]

Dont worry we will help them anyway

[240ZX]

So far, I haven't seen any outpouring of aid to us from our "allies" around the world. I guess they won't need our help when another earthquake or tsunami comes calling.

Excellent point there George!!! Time will tell. Everytime I see these natural disasters and how quickly life as we usually know it stops, it reminds me how easy it could happen to any of us if something disrupts the basic things we all depend on...like water, food, electricity, and sewage. I quess what I'm trying to say is, be prepared the best you can and do think about the consequences if you don't plan ahead. It is certainly sad that all these people are now scratching to survive. Fortunetly, life goes on...just not very smoothly in this case.

[chickenwafer]

I just can't get past the devastation in New Orleans. At first, I thought it was a little flooding and power out. Then I saw on Nightline the Hyatt hotel where one whole side had all the windows sucked out. They then showed the residential areas and the water up to the roofs of houses. New Orleans is actually below sea level, so when that levee broke it just trapped the water in. And the emergency pumps only pump the water into a lake that is feeding into the city, so it will just flood more. The water is still rising with no sight of it receeding anytime soon. It's just terrible. New Orleans a great, fun city and a business and culture hub of the United States. All the lost jobs, not to mention lives, are going to be a castrophy. The economic impact is going to be huge. Think of billions in dollars lost, and the countless lives. It's just terrible. The worst part is, we have no one to blame except mother nature. Who knows, maybe next Bush will launch a global "War against Mother Nature" regieum. At least until somebody tells him that mother nature isn't an actual mother.........


Dave

[260DET]

As far as foreign assistance to the US goes, it has happened in the past eg help fighting bushfires. With events like the recent tsunami, which was over hyped, I guess the rationale is that third world governments are not as able to assist their population as Western countries are.

[zhead240]

according to our news today canadian aid has been offered in the form of medical supplies and red cross, plus the dart(disaster aid relief team)team which has water purification capabilitles. so far american agencies have not replied what aid is needed.

[26th-Z]

So far, I haven't seen any outpouring of aid to us from our "allies" around the world. I guess they won't need our help when another earthquake or tsunami comes calling.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9148873/

[Mike]

I'm kind of surprised that whever I see a flooded area, there aren't many ( or any ) people on jet skis doing rescues. I mean NewOrleans is fairly close to the ocean that people could easily tow one to the beach for the day. The same with Florida. Maybe they don't have as many parked in garages as I see in the burbs where I live?

Not sure if I'd want to ride a jet-ski across that muck. A boat would be much safer. Lots of debris to get stuck in the intake and cause damage to the jet.

Also remember that water is NOT something you want to touch. Diseases are running rampant by now from the dead animals and possibly humans. There is also raw sewage and chemicals in the water. I also saw a news report that downed power-lines are an extremely dangerous risk as well.

It's definitely a challenging time for everyone in the wake of Katrina. My prayers go out to all those affected and especially to any of our members who have felt this storm in some way.

-- Mike

[Mike]

So far, I haven't seen any outpouring of aid to us from our "allies" around the world. I guess they won't need our help when another earthquake or tsunami comes calling.

Not sure where you get your information, but, I've seen nothing but offers to help from our allies. I was in Hawaii when this storm hit the US and the Hawaiians were adimate about sending people as soon as they could to help. The number one thing on their minds was Katrina. #2 on their minds was the little league success. :) They were pretty excited about that one.

Anyway, I'd take a look at various news sites and see what you can find on the subject of help from other nations. It's out there, you just have to look. Our news people seem to focus more on the negative side of things rather than the positive. That's our media for ya...

[1972zed]

Regardless of the shots we usually take from Bill O'Reilly and the rest of FOXNews. We Canadians are, and will be there for our American cousins, and as usual are in no need for accolades.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20050831_katrina_template_050831/?hub=Canada

[GunnerRob]

The worst part is, we have no one to blame except mother nature.You can also blame short sided economics. Pay now to prepare for the eventual superstorm, like the Netherlands have, or pay later in catastrophic losses.

Who knows, maybe next Bush will launch a global "War against Mother Nature" regieum. At least until somebody tells him that mother nature isn't an actual mother..........Everybody KNOWS this is Bush's fault. He had to know better. After all, he's got an MBA from Harvard! Maybe he slept through the meteorology class. Ya, that's it! That makes him the dumbest moron we ever "didn't" elect. It's GOTTA be HIS fault.

[chickenwafer]

I wasn't saying this was Bush's fault, but instead taking a crack at him. Besides, you already pointed out that we should have been more prepared. And you also right, that we DID NOT elect him the first time. Oh, and that he's a dumb moron- you were right about that too.
And when did Bush attend Harvard? He went to Yale and graduated in the bottom 2% of Yale history- ever. The only reason he got in was because his daddy made a huge donation to the school- Bush virtually got an honary degree.


Dave

[MikeZcar]

It's there and more is coming. You can get a short wave radio pretty cheap and listen in world wide, there are relief efforts most everywhere for this disaster. Think about it, when the US helps someone it's on our news outlets, unless you are watching, German, French, Canadian etc etc TV odds are you are not going to see the collection center at the local bank in Britian. Besides we used to be the richest country in the world and the country most able to afford to offer help after a disaster that is untill those tax cuts for the wealthiest 2%, the 200 BILLION dollar WMD war(wonder how much that would help the hurricane victims), half a trillion dollar deficet, oops I digress, my thought and prayers to all those jammed up by Katrina, Mike.

[CoastGuardZ]

Just be glad that you live in a country that lets you bad mouth it's president without fear of persecution.

I've got many shipmates down there helping out right now, long days and even longer nights. I can only hope that more are found and saved via Search and Rescue than the recovery and clean up.

Nate

"If you can read this thank a teacher. If you're reading this in English thank a Military Vet!"

[kenz240z]

My employer has asked for volunteers to go to New Orleans to help restore communications (I'm an RF Engineer for a wireless provider). I have offered to go, and at least two of my co-workers have offered, too. I should know tomorrow if they will still need us. I figure it would be a good way for me to help out directly, there are so many people who don't know if their family or friends are ok simply because cell phones & landlines are out of service.

[Victor Laury]

If you'd like to donate some cash, I just dropped just a little more than comfortable at http://www.networkforgood.org

Mine was to the American Red Cross, earmarked "Katrina Relief"

[boostedz]

The biggest thing that gets me is why arent these people being helped at all. I spent about 1 hour yesterday just watching vidoes from msn, the devastation and the state that the people are in are horrible.

Bodies just left to lay and rot in the street, 4+ days without food or water, children dying. Why isnt there any help for these people why are the still there and still wanting.

We can travel across the globe and in two days take care of others, we cant even help our on and its almost been a week, yet they still starve?????

WTF is wrong with Bush and this country?

[zguitar71]

This will end up like all other disasters in this country. 9/11 is still being probed and in the end they found many stupid mistakes were made, many out of pride as evident with the FBI. This will be investigated and the probe will find that the levees were in bad shape and they should have been repared years ago and upgraded for larger hurricanes along with so many other problems in the evac plan for the city and so on. And in the end the probe will be too late like the releif is, a probe might change the future but hindsight is not 20/20 it is just an admission of , and usually purposfull, blindness. I watched a NOVA show on PBS about 8 months ago, it took place in N.A. The topic was about the problem with the out of date levee system and what would happen if they were hit by a large hurricane. Their prediction was 100% correct, meanwhile the Army Corps of Engineers budget for repairing the levee's and other projects was cut by more than 20% this fical year to help fund the Iraq war and Home Land Security. The U.S. Government should be ashamed for too many reasons.

[jmark]

My employer has asked for volunteers to go to New Orleans to help restore communications (I'm an RF Engineer for a wireless provider). I have offered to go, and at least two of my co-workers have offered, too. I should know tomorrow if they will still need us. I figure it would be a good way for me to help out directly, there are so many people who don't know if their family or friends are ok simply because cell phones & landlines are out of service.Very nice Ken. Easy for most to throw money at the problem. Not many would offer to go. As far as those thugs attacking those who try to help I hope they get what they deserve. I hope the NG cleans house. The gangs & druggies running around doing whatever need to be dealt with harshly.

[CoastGuardZ]

Theses people chose to live in a city below sea level that was nestled between a lake and the Gulf. This is not the problem... The problem is they also chose not to leave when a category 5 hurricane had them in her sights, even though it had been recommended. I am not trying to make light of this situation... it is in deed a horrible tragedy. The same reasons that are currently stopping these people from getting out are the same reasons that are stopping the help from getting in. You're right though, President Bush is doing nothing. If recalling the Coast Guard reserves and placing many USCG cutters and many large U.S. Navy warships off the coast to head up the efforts is to be considered nothing. The very same communications that are down that Ken has volunteered to go repair are many of the same ones that allow emergency crews of different organizations to communicate with each other. Hence the need for the the Navy... floating airports with large communication suites to act as a communication hub for the ground crews. Think about how little Mr. Bush is doing the next time you watch the news and see a Rescue Swimmer risking his life to save people trapped in the attic of house and having them lifted to the safety of a helicopter waiting above.

Maybe Mr. Bush would be doing a lot more for the situation he drove a bulldozer down the streets leading a cleanup effort. I wonder if he has a heavy equipment operators license?

Yes, and as far as disasters going better in other countries... are you out of your right mind? They aren't called disasters for the heck of it. These NEVER go well. I from Charleston, SC and I can tell you that hurricanes are never to be taken lightly. They destroy everything that you do and use everyday... electricity, water, sewage, cars, houses, work, bridges, stores and on and on the list goes.

Right now there are military, national guard, police, firemen, electrical workers, water crews, communication, nurses, doctors and other workers literaly risking their lives to help others. Complaining never helps...

"IF YOU'RE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION, THEN YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!"

:mad:

[MikeW]

I think it's important to get the facts about the levee system. It was only designed for a category 3 storm so even if the whole project was complete it might not have helped with a category 4 or 5. The levee projects being discussed as underfunded are scheduled for completion in the year 2015 even with a full budget.

Here is the Army Corps of Engineers for New Orleans site with lots of reliable information:

http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/response/index.asp

Here is a project specific to the New Orleans vicinity. The other projects are up and down the river:

http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/visitor/lkpon1.asp

[zguitar71]

The people that chose not to leave were also most of the poorest people in the city, a city with over 23% at or below the poverty line. Could any one afford a car or gas or a place to flee too at $12,500 or less a year? Given the option I bet most would have left. Most of the poor do not have cars though, and the trains and busses out of town quit running 1-2 days before the storm hit. It has long been known that this type of disaster could hit the area, why were there not evac plans including bussing out the poorest people or people with out means to leave before the storm hit or have a stock of food and water for the people that could not leave? It is entirely ignorant to believe the people traped inside the city chose to stay. Some did and always will but most did not.

Bush is very late in responding. He should have flown to the area directly after the storm exited not 5 days later. No one is asking Bush to get his hands dirty in the rescue effort but he could have listened to the different agencies that were warning of this eminent disaster for many years now and given funding for an update of the levee system as opposed to cutting of the funds. Bush could have not stayed on vacation until Wednesday. Chainey, where is he? Last I heard he is still in Wyoming on vacation. And Mrs. Rice was in N.Y. City on Thursday buying over a thousand dollars in shoes while on vacation. Though the Cabinet is surley concerned, they do a poor job showing it.

Evidently Hurricanes are to be taken lightly judging from the reactions of the Bush Cabinet. If they were not taken lightly then the proper plans for evac and aid and an updated levee system would have been in place many years ago. For a long time it has been known a storm of this magnitude in New Orleans would leave the city flooded, breach the levees and strand many thousands of residents.

I am not the only one that thinks things are not giong well, President Bush announced today the relief effort has been sub-par.

[2003z]

I think it's important to get the facts about the levee system. It was only designed for a category 3 storm so even if the whole project was complete it might not have helped with a category 4 or 5. The levee projects being discussed as underfunded are scheduled for completion in the year 2015 even with a full budget.

Here is the Army Corps of Engineers for New Orleans site with lots of reliable information:

http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/response/index.asp

Here is a project specific to the New Orleans vicinity. The other projects are up and down the river:

http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/visitor/lkpon1.aspAnd while this might have been only a level 3 storm when it hit, the levels are only based on wind speeds. Based on barometric pressure, (which causes the storm surge), it was the 4th most powerful hurricane in recorded history!

[boyblunda]

My mother was attending a Conference and staying at a hotel in New Orleans until 0400 hours on Sunday morning and it took her some time and effort to be able to organise their own evacuation. In the preceding 24 hours no hire cars or commercial transport was available until she was lucky enough to combine with a few others and hire a taxi that took them to Baton Rouge. Traffic was bumper to bumper. The group then hired a car to drive to Dallas where they were able to make plane connections and, thankfully, get safely home.

She was part of a well resourced group with no ties in New Orleans who were fortunate enough to be able to afford any option that was available. They also had some very capable and well organised people working to assist the attendees of the Conference to aid in securing their evacuation. I would imagine that there were many many people who did not have that assistance, focus and resources.

An ex military person with some meteorological training, who runs a bed and breakfast in New Orleans, was interviewed on Australian national radio on Monday morning and he and his wife were going to sit out the storm in their own home thinking that they would be okay. They sounded as though they were preparing themselves well and I certainly hope that they are in fact okay.

However, there must be a huge number of people who did not have the means or the facility to escape the city and they are the ones requiring most assistance and support at this point in time. There will be support from both within the USA and from their allies. The problem will be in identifying the need and developing the best strategies to deal with the problems. Many well intentioned aid efforts leapt in prematurely or inapropriately into the Tsunami relief and were ineffective.

The response is getting quite some coverage in Australia and there is a lot of sympathy and feeling here for what the southern coastal areas of the USA is dealing with at the moment. Support will follow once the needs and best avenues are identified.

[CoastGuardZ]

If you honestly think that there was NOT an evacuation plan then the air in the big sky country is thinner than previously thought. I spent 22 years of my life living in the middle of hurricane alley, I will tell you this - ALL coastal cities and towns have evacuation routes, plans and guidelines in effect. The general populace hardly ever cares to pay any attention until it's too late. And to think that a city, town or county (parish) would have a plan to get the poverty stricken out and moved to an entirely different area that would offer protection from the rain and wind bands of the very same storm is purely ludacris! Okay so they move the entire welfare supported section of the city to high ground, now it becomes that same city's job, that is now in total chaos and underwater, to provide food water and shelter to these people that they moved - for the entire time it takes to make the city habitable again. Impossible. Impractical.

And yes I can see your point, the situation would be sooo much better if the president had flown in a few days sooner... okay I'm lying... this would have no weight on the situation at all. NOLA would still be submerged, and people would still be rescued the exact same way... remember AF1 had to stay well above the helicopter flight lines. The best view of the city is the same ones that everyone got/gets to see on all major news networks... the 1500 ft and lower video footage from the helos. And if the President Vice President and Ms. Rice were all standing in the NOLA area exactly what would that accomplish? With all the press and enterage that follows them around they would be in the way more than anything. They can get more accomplished in a phone call than if they show up to the devastated city anyway.

Evidently Hurricanes are to be taken lightly judging from the reactions of the Bush Cabinet. If they were not taken lightly then the proper plans for evac and aid and an updated levee system would have been in place many years ago. For a long time it has been known a storm of this magnitude in New Orleans would leave the city flooded, breach the levees and strand many thousands of residents.

And these people still decide to live there. Now that statement will bring back more criticism of poverty and poor - but then again, God helps those who help themselves.

Bickering does nothing and serves no purpose... Here's some food for thought.

My new tour has me as the XO of a transmitting station, so I am in no way involved with water transit and safety. Today I got a call from a concerned citizen that thinks he has an idea on how to repair the levee. I have absolutely no idea what he's talking about but all he wanted to do was help. So I forwarded him to someone that knows what he's talking about and just maybe they will be able to use his idea down there. But even if they can't at least he tried. So I close again...

"IF YOU'RE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION, THEN YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!"


Oh, boyblunda...

You have made a rational and intelligent statement. I believe that you are dead on with...
The problem will be in identifying the need and developing the best strategies to deal with the problems. Many well intentioned aid efforts leapt in prematurely or inapropriately into the Tsunami relief and were ineffective.
and
Support will follow once the needs and best avenues are identified.

I also think that this is similar to the San Fran quake of '89 (?) . There is just soooo much devastation that it will literally take months just to put out the main "fires", and really get started with the rebuild.

I could go on for pages but it's not solving anything, therefore I am just adding to the problem.

[zguitar71]

The air is not rare in higher altitudes, O2 levels stay constant; however, there is not enough pressure to allow absorbtion by the lungs. Missoula is only 3200 feet in elevation, not enough to make a difference.

I never ment they did not have an evac plan. What I ment: the plan is/was inadequate. Every city has evac plans for the natural disasters that may strike the area, but are they good enough? Many cities will probably review their plans from this event. I do believe the populants of a disaster area weather poor or wealthy should be given shelter until rebuilding can take place regardless of the impracticality of the undertaking. We should take care of our own people, and I think that will happen in this situation, not to would be criminal.

Again I do not think the President needed to get his hands dirty, an of course an earlier presents would not stop the flood but it would help reasure some of the people there and in the rest of the country.

[CoastGuardZ]

Here's what Nissan is doing to help...

http://www.nissannews.com/corporate/news/current/20050831085043.shtml

And here's a little something from the account's payable department...

http://www.nissannews.com/corporate/news/current/20050901022713.shtml

Nate

[CoastGuardZ]

Chris,

Rightly said and I do concur. FWIW, I appreciate the sarcasm in the first sentence... brought a much needed smile!

Cheers,
Nate

[GunnerRob]

And these people still decide to live there. Now that statement will bring back more criticism of poverty and poor - but then again, God helps those who help themselves.Nate, first off, I'd like to help you bring the balance back toward the center by saying that I concur with this statement as well as all that I've read in your posts in this thread. It smacks of the importance of taking personal responsibility for your well being.

"IF YOU'RE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION, THEN YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!"Too many people would rather take the "me too" approach and blame the head guy instead of getting all the facts, then ACTING on them.
I also think that this is similar to the San Fran quake of '89 (?). There is just soooo much devastation that it will literally take months just to put out the main "fires", and really get started with the rebuild.Recent estimates are saying 3 months just to pump out the city. And most homes, after being flooded for that long, will have to be bulldozed down and rebuilt. Can you say "stilts"?

[hls30.com]

Given that this has happened, and no one with enough authority to get it carried out was worried enough about that possability to have a truely viable plan for prevention in place, I think the pivotal failure of the government (local/state/federal in that order) was not to place people and working communication equipment (A short wave on batteries, a sat.phone)at the very least in the areas that were designated as shelters in the evacuation plan with the first relief feet in the area. The biggest excuse I have heard was: "we didn't know".

The biggest short coming was "you did not provide a way to know" Communication in and out is the only way to have a responsive and effective implementation of a plan of this scale. Most poeple must march the same direction, but in order to do that they must know the direction. If there were people and effective communication equipment in place, who didn't pass the info on, or who didn't listen. Infrastructure should not be getting intel first from a private news source
AS with most things involving more than one person, effective communication is the key.
If the lines of communication had been firmly established, there would have been no wait and see attitude-the seeing would have been immediate.
Resources weren't the problem-communicating that they were needed and exactly where and what it would take to get them there was.
Will
PS. Some people don't really pay attention to where they choose to live, some people don't really have a choice, this dose of awareness was too expensive given the knowledge of the geography that was available to elected officials.
When you don't know to ask a question, you usually don't ask it, but when someone represents you, you rely on them to ask it, and to inform you if the answer is important.
Insurance is someone else willing to bet you won't have a problem when you bet that you will. Wonder what is going to happen to the odds.

[CoastGuardZ]

Some people don't really pay attention to where they choose to live, some people don't really have a choice, this dose of awareness was too expensive given the knowledge of the geography that was available to elected officials.



Will, I have to disagree with you on this. In fact I would have to say that there is no way that these people didn't know the geographical blunders of New Orleans. I knew as a kid growing up in Charleston. Every time a hurricane thinks about going towards NOLA every news organization brings up the fact that NOLA sits below sea level, and is nearly surrounded by water. In fact a band called The Tragically Hip (our Canadian friends know who I'm talking about) had a song on their 1989 album Up To Here called "New Orleans is Sinking". This has been popular public knowledge for years.

Nate

"New Orleans is sinkin' man I don't wanna swim"

[ZwolleY]

Too bad Bambikiller is not around to contribute to this thread. International help is on the way: Sri Lanka (of all places!) is sending aid and El Savador has offered to send national guard troops. I am sure there are others in addition to these and Canada. Bush claimed in a television appearance Thursday, "No one ever imagined the levees breaking". Add this to to his Irac policy and you wonder what sort of man is leading this country.

[lan240]

I am in Madison, MS just outside of Jackson, MS and we were with out power until last night. The situation is so much worse south of me and I can not imagne what people are doing just to make it through the day. The gas shortage is making it harder for people to get back to their homes to start rebulding and getting their lifes back in order.

[1972zed]

CoastGuardZ. As a Western Canadian who visited NOLA (and fell in love with the city) a few years back, I have had that Tragically Hip song rattling around my head for a week. Awesome band - and that song you speak of "New Orleans is Sinking" isn't necessarily the best but its a good one. Nice to hear a plug for the Hip from south of the border. One of the most underrated bands out there.

on a more sober note, from a foreign perspective the optics of all this are that the people who had the wherewithall to get out got out, the people who didn't, couldnt. And it appears by the efforts in the aftermanth that the government doesn't care about the "downtrodden". And it appears that the government ignores these people because they don't vote, or at least vote for them. And if they wanted to vote, they would be deemed ineligible.

I guess much of this is the Michael Moore sentiment it will be interesting to see how it all plays out in the political theatre.

[MikeW]

And it appears by the efforts in the aftermanth that the government doesn't care about the "downtrodden". And it appears that the government ignores these people because they don't vote, or at least vote for them. And if they wanted to vote, they would be deemed ineligible.


I think that is out of line. It appears to me that the main group of people that the government is having to help are the "downtrodden". I can't imagine how you think voting is somehow tied to this. If you're somehow claiming that all of the victims stuck in the city couldn't vote then you're just plain wrong. Since you also seem to be claiming that this is tied to party politics please remember that the mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisiana are both democrats and both have just as much responsibility to the citizens as federal officials. This is a massive natural disaster and there is much work to be done. There will be plenty of blame to spread around in the future.

[zguitar71]

Since you also seem to be claiming that this is tied to party politics please remember that the mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisiana are both democrats and both have just as much responsibility to the citizens as federal officials.

The lack of funding for the flood mitigation system including the levees goes back to the Clinton era and beyond. There has been too much complacentcy from all parties.

[MikeW]

The lack of funding for the flood mitigation system including the levees goes back to the Clinton era and beyond. There has been too much complacentcy from all parties.

I agree but as I posted earlier the levee was only designed for a category 3. Even had all the funding been provided it might not have made a bit of difference. Some of the projects are still over 10 years from completion anyhow.

[jmortensen]

Man, already the political attacks are coming from all sides. Bottom line, the city is in a bad spot. Blaming W is like saying Clinton was responsible for the Northridge quake damage in '93, or Teddy Roosevelt for San Francisco's 1906 quake. Kinda retarded to blame the president when you look at it through that perspective, huh?

Seems more logical to hold some of the local govt officials responsible to me. But then they're all Democrats so maybe that won't fly with Chickenwafer. If he's still fighting the 2000 election that's a pretty good sign that reality and politics don't mix for him.

I for one hope they are smart enough not to rebuild NO as it was. They need to raise the city or move it IMO. You can make me into a pariah like Hastert if you want, but I'll take ostracism and common sense anyday.

[CoastGuardZ]

Here, here JMort! You are correct sir. Although raising an entire city or moving seem quite improbable... but on second thought Boston did shove the interstates underground... hmmm?

As you said the design is a local problem not the current administrations.

1972zed... trust me the g'ment is not ignoring the people down there. They have to get to them first. Trees are down, the roads that aren't flooded are packed with debris. If they could drive HumVees and Deuce and a Half's in there to get them they would.

Things are tuff all over down there.

As a side note... I'm a huge Hip fan, got started on 'em when I lived in Buffalo, NY.

Nate

[jmortensen]

Here, here JMort! You are correct sir. Although raising an entire city or moving seem quite improbable... but on second thought Boston did shove the interstates underground... hmmm?
Look how well having the interstates underground seems to be working for Boston.

If Japan can BUILD AN ISLAND to make an airport I would imagine that those same dirt scooping boats could fill in a bowl. Just an idea...

[mlc240z]

I think the scope of the devastation just overwhelmed any preparations they had in place. You can plan all you want, but the best laid plans become really inadequate if the wind shifts and the storm comes ashore 50 miles away. It's just too unpredictable.
As far as the levees and other flood mitigation projects, we're all guilty of the same thinking, even to the local and personal level.
Despite what a lot of people think, there's no money tree. It's a finite pot and everybody chooses what to spend it on based on the needs at the time.
Say, for example, the government has $300 million to spend on NOLA. They already have the current levee system in place and if, before this storm, you went to the people and asked what to spend it on, I doubt few would have said make the levees stronger IN CASE we ever get hit by a storm. In the past, we've weathered everything and it always misses us anyway. That's why a lot of people stayed thinking they'll just ride it out.
They would say been there, done that, we've ALREADY spent all this money (over $450million since just 1995), don't waste it on the same project.
With all the other needs to throw money at, they probably would want roads repaved/improved, welfare assistance increased, job training, a new park, a new stadium or convention center and the jobs that go with it, more police, etc.etc.etc.......

NOONE can predict the future.

I can guarantee a lot of money will be thrown at this now, but you might never get hit by another storm like this.

Unfortunately, people often use hindsight to point fingers at everyone else but themselves.

[MikeW]

Look how well having the interstates underground seems to be working for Boston.

If Japan can BUILD AN ISLAND to make an airport I would imagine that those same dirt scooping boats could fill in a bowl. Just an idea...

Kansai airport itself is sinking faster than planned, just like New Orleans has over the last several hundred years.

[jmortensen]

Kansai airport itself is sinking faster than planned, just like New Orleans has over the last several hundred years.
I knew that was going to come up. :P I still think it might be a better idea than rebuilding NO as is. There is always my other alternative. Move the city somewhere safer.

[zguitar71]

I agree but as I posted earlier the levee was only designed for a category 3. Even had all the funding been provided it might not have made a bit of difference. Some of the projects are still over 10 years from completion anyhow.

Unfortunatly the plans for the levees are shaped by politics as well. The plans will probably be changed to cover a catigory 5 now, and I bet they get funded. As far as the time frame, being that it is a government job 10 years will probably turn into 20.

I work for the local government here in Missoula as an Arborist. We have delt with FEMA on occasion. Once for a June snow storm that hit the city trees and caused a few million in damage (a lot for a small city like Missoula) and on a yearly basis for the inspection our own levee systems in the valley around the Clark Fork River. The amount of red tape to start the flow of money is incredible. It is a very slow process.

[zguitar71]

There is always my other alternative. Move the city somewhere safer.

I think that is the best idea. The place has been flooded for centuries. The French settled there in the 1500's and instead of moving to higher ground (the 1st flood happened 1 year after they started a settlement there) they started to build levees around the settlement. The same thinking has been in place now for a long time, only it has gotten more technilogically advanced. So I guess we sould really start blaming the French! LOL

[TomoHawk]

I'm still wondering why there hasn't been a memorial service for those that were lost so far. After the attack on the WTC, the bubmint so quick to have a memorial to show the people that "it cared."

So what's holding them up? It was so important to have the service right away in 2001, but it doesn't matter that there are people with low hopes today? Not only do they need food & water, but they need to know there's more than the gubmint to look to for hope & help.

thx

[jmortensen]

Maybe because they haven't finished DYING yet. 9/11 was done on 9/12. This is going to go on for at least a couple more days before they're done rescuing people. Then they get to go through and find all the bodies trapped in the attics of the city. Inappropriate doesn't begin to describe a memorial service in LA right now.

[TomoHawk]

The tragedy in New Orleans is done. Only the cleanup is part way through. There have obviously been many, many deaths already- they just don't have an idea on the number of deaths like they did for the WTC.

A memorial service for those lost is VERY appropriate at this point. So is one for the live people.

The cleanup of the WTC took a long time too, so why didn't they wait weeks for that memorial service? The others affected in New Orleans have the same need for hope. All they have now is a bus ride to the middle of Texas. It'll be weeks before the water gets down enough to go looking for bodies, and aid money, clothes, a bed, food & water isn't all that's important right now. Looking in the attics doesn't happen until the water level goes down, so they probably won't find many more bodies for a while.

So you think people should just wait weeks until the gubmint feels like things are settled?

[jmortensen]

Remember you asked what I think. Here it is: I think diverting money, resources, and manpower to a memorial service right now would be incredibly stupid and insensitive.

[seerex]

New Orleans is not done, and I think it far from it. I think a memorial service is the last things on these peoples minds. I also thing the big diffrence is that the WTC was an attack on us not a natural disaster, the feelings and emotions are both very strong but for diffrent reasons. I think memorial services show a sign of a turn from rescue stage to recovery and NO is not in that stage, they are looking for the basics. When andrew hit in fla the feeling was the same and no they weren't wanting a memorial service they wanted help. Sorry to sound cold but save the people you can and deal with the dead later, and yes there will be more of the living dying , those found and those not yet found. I pray the numbers are alot lower than what the projections were from FEMA's study that was done 3 years ago.

[TomoHawk]

Sure, that's your side of it.

I don't think the gubmint need to erect a giant monument or hire the Pope to do a memorial, but there should be one, and a little money to the right organization (like the EWTN Network, for one, or the mormons, et al.) could do it easily. The TV Networks could do it just as easily.

[seerex]

Are suggesting we use goverment or donated money to hire a religous based network or do one of that nature in a memorial type setting? You don't get it I see . Hey this isn't my SIDE of it , its the facts, feed, cloth and move them as nescessary to make things better for these people.

[TomoHawk]

So you want people to just hold in all the feelings of loss of friends & family for weeks or months until the city is dried out enough to go home and prepare a formal memorial service? I think that is insensitive.

I have a friend who used to live in South La, and we ( group of friends up here in OH) had a memorial for him. It helps rest the feelings you have since they can't bury the guy yet, if ever.

Yes, these people need food & clothes and a SAFE place to go, but you gotta worry about more than just the bodies. I'm sure the TV networks or religious organizations would be happy to do a memorial. And yes, a little government money could help that happen.

Most of the money is going through the churches and other organizations like Red Cross, Salvation Army, etc. I'm sure these organizations offer DAILY prayer, worship and even memorial services.

[Zdreamer]

Outta here!

[TomoHawk]

Ive seen those TV blurbs where you see some poor lost person saying, "Where's the food?? The water?? Why can't they get us out of here?? The government stinks!!"

GREED, GREED, GREED.

They are only thinking of themselves. true they have personal needs to remain healthy & survive, but obviously these uninfirmed people don't know how bad things are. I hope they receive the faith they need that help will come.

Not only the job they had, but the employer is gone, and the place where they used to work. Talk about losing local jobs....

I empathize with you & them, that this historical city, with its hundreds of years of history, is now basically gone. I think if they do get the city dried out & excavated from whatever mud will be left, that the only 'historic quarter' with be in history books.

But I'll hope for better to happen, of course.

[1972zed]

MikeW "I think that is out of line. It appears to me that the main group of people that the government is having to help are the "downtrodden". I can't imagine how you think voting is somehow tied to this.

Sorry Mike, I didn't mean to offend you or anyone else. From my perspective this may be the largest civil engineering cotastrophe of all time. Is it a natural disaster? partially, yes and mostly no. The levee system was inadequate and out of date. The government was warned this would eventually happen but chose to ignore the warnings. THe fact that thousands of relatively poor uneducated black folk live beneath sea level behind leaky walls with no means of escape appears somehow tied to government priorities. Government priorities are tied to votes. It appears the government had different priorities.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313

Votes determine where federal dollars are spent (Iraq or at home). and on most US news broadcasts this morning including Meet the Press, the question is already being floated "would the government's reaction (before and after the levee broke) had been the same if this took place in an affluent white neighborhood.

It will be interesting to watch over the next two years or so how all this unfolds.
Steve

[MikeZcar]

Do you think if the "Hamptons" had a similar disaster, the response time for aid would have still been a week? Well suuuure it would have been, lot's of mistakes along the way on this one, but don't worry "The buck never stops here" baby bush is sure to point the finger and roll some heads. Same old story, to me at least, no matter what happens the guy at the top has ultimate responsibilty, but not "Mr resolve".

[zguitar71]

Ive seen those TV blurbs where you see some poor lost person saying, "Where's the food?? The water?? Why can't they get us out of here?? The government stinks!!"

GREED, GREED, GREED.

They are only thinking of themselves. true they have personal needs to remain healthy & survive, but obviously these uninfirmed people don't know how bad things are. I hope they receive the faith they need that help will come.



I hope you are not saying the stranded people in NO are being greedy. If you are you should realise they are surounded by people dying and already dead people. There are people being murdered infront of many other people. In the paper this morning a man told a story of him and a large group of other people watching a man get beaten to death by another man with a pipe. Another person reaccounted watching a woman being raped, that was right after he had been carjacked and shot at while he was on his way to try and get to his daughter who was being helied from a hospital to another one somewhere else because she has brain cancer. A person jumped off the Super Dome, other people have killed themselves incuding 2 NO police officers. On top of that they have no info on what is going on and no water and no food. The air is hot and humid and smells of decomposing bodies. It is very much hell on earth.

The only greed the stranded people have shown is the natural greed instilled in all of us called survival. The stranded know better than anyone else how bad things are. Fortunatly most of them are out of there now.

Mabey if there was a memorial service they would see the light and not be so greedy.

[george71z]

Everybody seems to have a 'Hollywood mentality' about this tragedy. The cavalry won't be there right after the commercial break, folks. This is REAL LIFE. It takes TIME to get the supplies and people organized and sent to the areas in need. If it was so hard for people to get out, what makes them think it will be any easier for someone to get in? They think because the talking heads are there, the aid should be too. Yes, errors were probably made, but to blame EVERYTHING on the Prez is asinine. Just shut up and help. Send money, take in a family, bring water or clothing to a shelter site; above all, give thanks it wasn't YOU; and make your own preparations for whatever natural disaster may strike your area.

[TomoHawk]

I wonder how many people are actually prepared for a disaster that could happen in their area- like tornado, or power/gas outage, snow blizzard, or whatever.

I also agree that it does take a lot of time to mount a domestic movement of the troops; they're mostly geared toward foreign movements, and with the amount of stuff involved, it will take a lot of time to gather it, deliver it to the general area, and then get it to the people who need it. Blaming anyone is totally out of order! The President has done his job correctly and to the best of his ability AS president. Remember we live in a beurocratic country.

FYI, the TV networks ( in my area at least) have all recommended that you do NOT go there to help. I agree. More people will only create more chaos. If you choose to give, give what you can to the appropriate organization(s) and they will deliver it to those in need. there will be a time to go later, when it's safe and appropriate.

[mlc240z]

one thing i notice is that all these people interviewed say they WITNESSED beatings and rapes, and then ask "where is the help and the police".
no tv available so i guess that's their entertainment? just stand there and watch?
why can't THEY do something, after all they're right there. 15,000 people in the superdome, at least half adults.
in a society, it's everybody's responsibility to respond, not just the 'government'.

[GunnerRob]

Everybody seems to have a 'Hollywood mentality' about this tragedy. The cavalry won't be there right after the commercial break, folks. This is REAL LIFE. It takes TIME to get the supplies and people organized and sent to the areas in need. If it was so hard for people to get out, what makes them think it will be any easier for someone to get in? They think because the talking heads are there, the aid should be too. Yes, errors were probably made, but to blame EVERYTHING on the Prez is asinine. Just shut up and help. Send money, take in a family, bring water or clothing to a shelter site; above all, give thanks it wasn't YOU; and make your own preparations for whatever natural disaster may strike your area.
George, I believe you've hit the nail on the head.

I wish you could send this to the "Hollywood" news and "disaster relief" shows who continue to pound the Prez as we speak. These influential people are so shortsighted that they can't see past their ratings.

[GunnerRob]

one thing i notice is that all these people interviewed say they WITNESSED beatings and rapes, and then ask "where is the help and the police".
no tv available so i guess that's their entertainment? just stand there and watch?
why can't THEY do something, after all they're right there. 15,000 people in the superdome, at least half adults.
in a society, it's everybody's responsibility to respond, not just the 'government'.
If I didn't know any better, I would think you were talking about neighborhood gang violence. The only difference is that the people in the dome actually SAY they saw these things happening. These things happen because the people around them ALLOW it to happen.

[TomoHawk]

The same thing happens in NYC probably every day. A crowd of people will stand by looking on as another gets robbed (or worse?) on the sidewalk, sometimes in broad daylight!

It's one time I would like to see some groups of vigilantes just patroling, but it also makes you wonder how many of those 'bad guys' are packing weapons.

[EScanlon]

No one gets involved at the time that their involvement is most critically needed. Yet, when the situation arises that something fails or doesn't work, then everyone is quick to blame everyone else for lack of involvement.

The lack of response in any one area of the country becomes apparent ONLY after a disaster happens. It is easy, in hind sight, to find the problems, develop a trouble-free solution and avoid exacerbating the situation. Yet for all our insightful dissection, we fail to apply that knowledge to prevent future problems.

We're all too smug in our beliefs that this kind of thing can only happen to OTHERS and not us. We fail to measure OUR safeguard measures against those that have already proven inadequate, for fear of having to get involved and make them better.

Before you start pointing the finger at inadequacies in OTHER parts of the country, ask yourself if YOU are doing the minimum YOUR community needs. Are you a Blood Donor? Have you taken C.E.R.T. training? Do you know the type of disaster that is most likely for your area? Is there an evacuation route? Where is the nearest shelter?

When disasters happen, it isn't by some form of malicious planning by anyone. Nor is the lack of, promptness of, or inadequacy of any kind of response.

Consider that it is logistically IMPOSSIBLE to provide the kind of instant response that some people would claim is the "least that we can do". The only way to provide "instant" response is to have foreseen the disaster.

How prepared are you to help YOURSELF?

Too many times you see the victims of a disaster, literally expect to be cared for as if they were newborns. That means that EACH victim expects SEVERAL people to be there to "rescue" just THEM ALONE! These are the true victims, they can't even help themselves.

Do you know the basics of helping yourself? Are you going to become another "victim" or can you help yourself?

2¢
Enrique

P.S. One note on the "fault" of our government officials. They're all inadequate. Neither "side" is willing to work towards a society that in fact believes in individual freedom, and a sound and efficient method of government. The politicos feel that you are entitled to those things....as long as it is THEIR interpretation of it. Neither camp wants to be saddled with the task of re-fitting or repairing the structure, yet both are quick to point the finger at the other when assigning blame. The reason they are SEPARATE parties is that they see things differently, or in a different perspective. That makes it a given that they will not be addressing the situation as the other side would have them address it. They don't see it the same way, so of course the response is inadequate in what each considers important.

[jmortensen]

The same thing happens in NYC probably every day. A crowd of people will stand by looking on as another gets robbed (or worse?) on the sidewalk, sometimes in broad daylight!
The technical name for this is "Kitty Genovese Syndrome" and it comes from an unfortunate woman in NYC (surprise) who was stabbed going from her car to her home, then the attacker left for a while, then he came back and raped her again and stabbed her to death. There were over 30 witnesses who heard her screaming for help, but nobody called the police.

I gotta go with Enrique on this one. There's only one person who's primary interest is YOU, and that's YOU. We all need to be responsible for ourselves, and waiting for the govt to do anything on your behalf is setting yourself up for disappointment.

[TomoHawk]

So if there had actually been enough forewarning which EVERYONE had heeded, and then made for the higher ground, then the only casualties would have been some cars/trucks, the buildings & their contents, and the face of the city.

And maybe just a few people who needed rescuing because they were the last to get out as the hurricane was moving in, Judging from how many people were moved by the buses, but those with cars or trucks should have been able to get themselves out, like the people in FL do. Those left could have easily been handled, and the citizens of New Orleans would all be safe with relatives, friends or where ever.

[1 Bravo 6]

George 71Z.

Where's the aid from our allies, you ask.
Make sure you get ALL the facts straight before you start throwing accusations around mate. Oz isn't anywhere near as rich as the U.S. but, while we're still spending millions in tsunami relief, (which, by the way, was more than most), we still stretched the coffers with a donation to the American Red Cross, and you can be damned sure that other countries are doing "their bit" as well.

Reading through the posts on this thread, one thing becomes blatantly apparent. Hindsight fixes everything. All the finger pointing in the world is not doing any damned good at all.

Get your priorities straight. Whether they're still in New Orleans or lucky enough to have been moved to Texas or elsewhere, the main point is that those poor buggers have lost EVERYTHING except the clothes on their backs and what they can carry.

Instead of all the bellyaching, why not do something constructive??. Such as
organising a neighbourhood collection of clothing, including hats and shoes and don't forget toys for the kids. Contact the Red Cross and find out what is needed.

Cut the crap.

Rick.
:devious: :devious:

[1972zed]

Its sad how the media is now taking sides on this. I just watch a Fox newscaster interview Jesse Jackson, but then turn the tables and attack local Democrat governors and mayors and Jesse himself and defending the president. But on the other channels (CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS) they are blaming the federal government. On Fox they were actually saying this whole mess is a blessing in disguise and that the city will be renewed and rebuilt by entropreneurs and be a better city. They interviewed the owner of the basketball franchise who said it is a good opportunity to bring the casinos inland. While CNN et al. focus on the human tragedy.

It really reinforces the left/right divide in America.

[1 Bravo 6]

Pointing the finger of scorn and looking for scapegoats to blame is premature at this point in time.
What is most important is the welfare of the citizens of New Orleans who, for whatever the reason, were unable to evacuate before Katrina struck.
When their immediate future is assured, THEN start burning the buggers who stuffed up.

Apparently, most are blaming Gee Dublya personally. While he might sit behind the desk where the buck stops, I suggest that there would be quite a few underlings who are more directly responsible for the monumental stuffup that saw five days go by before any real assistance arrived on the scene.

Rick.

:devious: :devious:

[1 Bravo 6]

If you want to read something that is very interesting, go to;

www.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5

What makes it even more interesting is that it was written 12 months ago.

Rick.
:devious: :devious:

[jmark]

one thing i notice is that all these people interviewed say they WITNESSED beatings and rapes, and then ask "where is the help and the police".
no tv available so i guess that's their entertainment? just stand there and watch?
why can't THEY do something, after all they're right there. 15,000 people in the superdome, at least half adults.
in a society, it's everybody's responsibility to respond, not just the 'government'.Well said.

[jmortensen]

FWIW when I was watching the news last night they were saying that when they went through the Superdome they didn't find any bodies that had been beaten or stabbed as the reports had said during the crisis. It appears that some of the horrible things we heard just didn't happen.

[Victor Laury]

-----SNIP-------What is most important is the welfare of the citizens of New Orleans who, for whatever the reason, were unable to evacuate before Katrina struck. When their immediate future is assured, THEN start burning the buggers who stuffed up.------End Snip-----

Thank you Rick. You summed up my feelings over most of what I've been hearing since this happened.

[GunnerRob]

If you want to read something that is very interesting, go to;

www.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5

What makes it even more interesting is that it was written 12 months ago.

Rick.
:devious: :devious:
Good find Rick.
According to this article, it appears southern Louisiana hasn't learned their lesson, nor listened to the experts and locals concerning the threat to their entire existence. I suppose the recent events will have little impact on their thought processes for the future. They'll probably still try to circumvent nature, and in the end, lose again.

[26th-Z]

This guy is selling two cars. One is RHD Fairlady.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Datsun-Z-Series-240Z-Datsun-240Z-1970_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6187QQitemZ4578833 730QQrdZ1

[Fun_in_my_z]

Yeah i saw those. I wish the pics where better

[seerex]

hhm very interesting, might have to make a road trip

[CoastGuardZ]

He says it's basically just a parts car now... but if one was planning a resto anyway I'm sure most of it could be saved (sans wiring though).

[Z-point]

Not only two Z where flooded but many more, read.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Savinganddebt/Saveonacar/P129008.asp?GT1=7009

[lonetreesteve]

I wonder if the boat in the yard next to the Fairlady is a stray and just washed up there during the storm?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Datsun-Z-Series-240z-Datsun-Z-RHD-Fairlady-240Z-G-nose-wide-body-kit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6187QQitemZ45788304 40QQrdZ1